Universal Service

[spike]

Ok, back to the question ... why is the term of 'welfare' being brought into this when the students/young adults in question will be working for this incentive?

Thank you nalani for a very well thought out response. I think the answer to tour quote above is is simply scare tactics though. People try to tie a negative label to things to evoke an emotional response whether it fits or not.

It's the only way to make something like kids working for the improvement and security of the nation in exchange for an improved education sound sinister.

The history bit tried to play up churches as a better solution to those in need even though it wasn't at all.

The fact is many kids join the military mainly for the college tuition. The pittance they are paid is not really a factor to them. National service in exchange for college tuition is no different really, and neither resembles welfare.

Not that welfare is entirely or even mostly bad. But this isn't welfare.

It's improved national security and better educated Americans. Sounds like a win/win right?

Right now the youth of our country are lagging behind in education.

 

[GrandCaravanSE]

I know you mean that half jokingly but honestly, I can't get through the crap that you spew over and over again and it is circular .. but the usual suspects that you argue with for the sake of arguing do the exact same thing .. so I've just stopped reading them. What I brought up was a one sentence question. When I read what you attempt to bring up, all I hear in my head is 'Huh? Come on .. come on .. prove it .. let's see it ... where is it written in stone .. show me .. show me .. come on ... " You could make your point stronger and have more people read them if you took a look at your approach, that is, if you really want people to read them. If you want to argue for the sake of arguing then that's up to you. It's a waste of time but it's up to you, nonetheless.

I thought you stopped reading the posts?

 

[nalani]

I thought you stopped reading the posts?

I didn't stop reading the posts, I stopped reading spikes and a few others posts above that were going back and forth with whoever the arguments were with. Keep up

 

[nalani]

It's improved national security and better educated Americans. Sounds like a win/win right?

Right now the youth of our country are lagging behind in education.

Well, it may be win-win .. I guess all the questions have to be answered first and the program has to be laid out. As we all know, even the best intended plans have ugly loopholes ...

 

[GrandCaravanSE]

I didn't stop reading the posts, I stopped reading spikes and a few others posts above that were going back and forth with whoever the arguments were with. Keep up

sorry i'm slow, to much video games.

 

[H2O boy]

Right now the youth of our country are lagging behind in education.

most assuredly true without argument.

now let's solve it.

i propose that government education is a failure, and from the above statement you must agree with me. so your answer is to fix it by throwing more government education at it?

there are situations in life that are best answered by sources besides government. i realize that the very notion may indeed throw you into apoplexy, but most people are aware of the concept. $300 hammers and such, you know.

when your government is able to control what you learn, and by definition, do not learn, exactly how many steps from totalitarianism are we? we americans like to smugly ridicule other countries for the blind obedience to state authority mandated in their schools. but think abou it...we send kids to government run schools every day. no the kids are not out in formation saluting a poster of our leader/s, but they are taught precisely what the government wants them to learn and no more. agreed?

now take it one step more. an uneducated populace must depend on the information spoonfed to them to make their decisions. in all facets of life. economics, politics, morality, you name it. well when the government controls the input (with the exception of the few who do develop enough gumption to pursue their own truth) then the outcome becomes rather foregone, wouldn't you say? tell a kid for 12 years that taxes are essential and patriotic and the very lifeblood of the american system and they grow up to be...well, democrats i suppose. people who, without really giving it much thought, subject themselves to more taxation, more regulation, and learn to depend on the government tit for everything

that may well be what you want. it is not what i want. too bad for poor ole uncle sam that i obtained the degrees i obtained i guess. problem is, most of the people are not sharp enough to grasp any concept other than that of the government system, so we end up with a nation woefully undereducated and largely incapable of independent thought. just as planned...maybe

i personally cant think of two things the government ever improved

 

[spike]

i propose that government education is a failure, and from the above statement you must agree with me. so your answer is to fix it by throwing more government education at it?

I wonder how the countries that are doing better education-wise are handling it? That might be a good place for you to do a little research.

 

[catocom]

imo politicians the to use the word universal, way too much.
Why can't they tailor anything any more?

*hobbles off mumbling...sonsabitches....

 

[H2O boy]

I wonder how the countries that are doing better education-wise are handling it? That might be a good place for you to do a little research.

dont need to. i dont care what anyone else does. i care what we do. i let other people mind their business and i mind mine.

might be a lesson there you could do some research on. or not

 

[jimpeel]

Ummm.. ok .. first, you should know that the Pell Grant is not private. The Pell Grant Program is a need-based, undergraduate grant program funded by the federal government.

The money comes from the federal government but the administration of the money is institutional. You are totally correct about the source of the money. It is a grant, not a scholarship.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/PellGrants.jsp

If I am eligible, how will I get the Pell Grant money?
Your school can apply Pell Grant funds to your school costs, pay you directly (usually by check), or combine these methods. The school must tell you in writing how much your award will be and how and when you'll be paid. Schools must disburse funds at least once per term (semester, trimester, or quarter). Schools that do not use semesters, trimesters, or quarters must disburse funds at least twice per academic year.

Is it "welfare"?

http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/PellGrants.jsp

A Federal Pell Grant, unlike a loan, does not have to be repaid.

Oh yeah .. I guess I should mention that I'm pretty anti-welfare. Maybe that's not accurate .. I'm anti 'learn to live on welfare'. I'm glad it's there for deserving families who are in need for a short period of time. I hope I never have to go there. But those who've raised families on the system .. generations, even ... seriously piss me off.

I believe that those who have paid into the program should be able to draw on that program for a short term. It should not become a family legacy.

Ok, back to the question ... why is the term of 'welfare' being brought into this when the students/young adults in question will be working for this incentive?

As I said HERE:

In the case of college students doing community service they do not receive any wage during the term of that service. The incentive is not awarded until the terms of that service are met. If a person works 99 hours and fails to complete the required 100 hours, they not only do not receive any wage they also do not receive the incentive. They will have worked for nothing. They will not receive their welfare incentive.

...

The system is also ripe for abuse as those who apply for the $4,000 welfare payment get those for whom they are supposed to be working to pad their timesheets.

 

[nalani]

ah, ok jim .. I understand now. I've been asking you to explain something to me that you can't because of semantics or a difference in opinion. That's not a slight to you, I hope you don't take it that way. It's how you 'view' the incentive versus how I 'view' it. Thank you for the taking the time to attempt to explain it though, I really appreciate that. I wish more of these threads could be conducted in this way.

One thing though - the Pell Grant is distributed institutionally but that doesn't make it 'private' - the school acts as the middle man because, for one reason, they're guaranteed to get their tuition and the feds have to deal with the schools rather than thousands of individuals.

I really can't wait to see all the details of this plan, if this plan even makes it to "program" status. Right now we're all probably discussing some scribblings on a napkin

 

[jimpeel]

ah, ok jim .. I understand now. I've been asking you to explain something to me that you can't because of semantics or a difference in opinion. That's not a slight to you, I hope you don't take it that way. It's how you 'view' the incentive versus how I 'view' it. Thank you for the taking the time to attempt to explain it though, I really appreciate that. I wish more of these threads could be conducted in this way.

One thing though - the Pell Grant is distributed institutionally but that doesn't make it 'private' - the school acts as the middle man because, for one reason, they're guaranteed to get their tuition and the feds have to deal with the schools rather than thousands of individuals.

I really can't wait to see all the details of this plan, if this plan even makes it to "program" status. Right now we're all probably discussing some scribblings on a napkin

Po-tay'-toe vs. po-tah'-toe.

You are quite correct that the Pell grant program is not private. I was in error in saying that. Institutional administration of government money is close; but no cigar. Sorry about that.

Do you think that having a civilian national security force walking our streets is a good idea? What is the function of this group that is just as powerful and strong as the military? What powers will they have that are just as powerful and strong as military powers? Will they be armed? Will they have force of law? Can they detain citizens and on what charges? Will they have sovereign immunity from prosecution for wrongful acts?

And what of the "just as well funded" part? Where does that money come from? THIS GUY gave some notion on what that might entail.

Do you believe that this "security force" will be as innocuous as any high school community service program? That's what the Germans thought of the Hitler Youth and the Brown Shirts until the Night of the Long Knives. Maybe an American Kristalnacht might wake some people up.

What reservations do you have about Obama's Civilian National Security Force? Any thoughts on how to rebottle this genie once it is unleashed?

 

[Gonz]

Not that welfare is entirely or even mostly bad. But this isn't welfare.

Under our Constitution & frame of government, yea, it is. The answer is really quite simple & afforded a solution by the Constitution. Change it.

Assistance to those that need it should come, first & foremost, from the family. That's what families are for. Second & third is private or religious organizations. Government, especially the federal government, is not suited to handle this.

Helping those that help themselves is a burden left up to the state as a last resort...after all other oprions have been explored. Helping those that are fat & lazy is embezzelment.

 

[nalani]

Do you think that having a civilian national security force walking our streets is a good idea? What is the function of this group that is just as powerful and strong as the military? What powers will they have that are just as powerful and strong as military powers? Will they be armed? Will they have force of law? Can they detain citizens and on what charges? Will they have sovereign immunity from prosecution for wrongful acts?

See, I can't answer those things because the main huge questions about this program haven't been answered or addressed. As far as I read, they weren't going to be the equivalent of the National Guard .. they were going to learn certain skills in a 3-month period and if needed, be called to duty. Nothing I read said anything about who's control they'd be under nor did anything say they would be "just as powerful and strong as military powers". It's all just an idea on a napkin, so to speak, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[spike]

dont need to. i dont care what anyone else does. i care what we do.

So your not so much concerned with what has been proven to work and what doesn't. More just mindless platitudes.

I gotcha.

 

[spike]

Under our Constitution & frame of government, yea, it is. The answer is really quite simple & afforded a solution by the Constitution. Change it.

You have shown time and time again that you could give a shit about the Constitution. So come off it already.

This plan is not even against the Constitution nor is it much different than what we do already.

Assistance to those that need it should come, first & foremost, from the family. That's what families are for. Second & third is private or religious organizations. Government, especially the federal government, is not suited to handle this.

That is clealy just your own misguided opinion and has no basis in reality.

Helping those that help themselves is a burden left up to the state as a last resort...after all other oprions have been explored. Helping those that are fat & lazy is embezzelment.

Again, bullshit platitudes.

 

[jimpeel]

See, I can't answer those things because the main huge questions about this program haven't been answered or addressed. As far as I read, they weren't going to be the equivalent of the National Guard .. they were going to learn certain skills in a 3-month period and if needed, be called to duty. Nothing I read said anything about who's control they'd be under nor did anything say they would be "just as powerful and strong as military powers". It's all just an idea on a napkin, so to speak, as far as I'm concerned.

Here is Obama on video in his own words and in his own voice on July 2, 2008 in Colorado Springs, CO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s

"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

 

[jimpeel]

That is clealy just your own misguided opinion and has no basis in reality.

Apparently it is not "just [his] own misguided opinion". It seems there was someone else who held that same opinion who just might know a thing or two about the meaning and intent of the Constitution.

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."
- Thomas Jefferson, 1798

"To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father's has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association--'the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.'" --Thomas Jefferson: Note in Destutt de Tracy's "Political Economy," 1816. ME 14:466

 

[H2O boy]

I gotcha.

good. nice to see you're finally coming around to sensible thought

government education, by your own assertations, is a patent failure. your proposed solution is more government education. now instead of making cheap shot comments, why not explain how thats going to fix the problem. to me it sounds like more spin

 

[nalani]

Here is Obama on video in his own words and in his own voice on July 2, 2008 in Colorado Springs, CO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s

"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

Thanks for the link and info, Jim! I'll take a look at it as soon as I get home .. BOO on work places that have filters!!!