What course of action would you favor?

[Gonz]

Unless you've been extremely selective in your news and radio selections, you've no doubt heard that groups like Al Qaeda, in the name of Islam, declared war on the westen civilization in the early 1990's.

Using 20/20 hindsight, it can be argued that all of this started in 1972, in Munich.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Using 20/20 hindsight, it can be argued that all of this started in 1972, in Munich.

That was agains Israel. The rest of us came after Afghanistan...

 

[Gonz]

Against Israel, outside of the sandbox. It opened the door.

 

[unclehobart]

How does a *ENOUGH* no personal insults...Gonz like you take a moral high ground over insults on a message board when you advocate murdering people?

Ban me if you like, I no more want to remain at a message board that condones the attitudes expressed here than I would an Al-Qaeda one.

If you would ever take the time to know me, you would know that my responses were merely comedic hyperbole... or do you really suppose that I advocate killing Colts fans and pregnant puppies for the actions of terrorists?

 

[Gato_Solo]

If you would ever take the time to know me, you would know that my responses were merely comedic hyperbole... or do you really suppose that I advocate killing Colts fans and pregnant puppies for the actions of terrorists?

I didn't think the Colts had any fans left...

 

[Gonz]

I didn't think the Colts had any fans left...

They're winning, of course there are some.

 

[Gato_Solo]

They're winning, of course there are some.

It won't last. It never does.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

Interesting theory. Unfortunately, moderates in Islam have done, or said, nothing about these fanatical groups since their inception. They issue fatwas like snow in a blizzard about how bad the west is, and nothing is said. While not outright support, I do count that as tacit approval.

No moderates in Islam have ever condemned these groups? Have a word with yourself. A really big one.

Kind of like how the Protestants and Catholics have been going at it in Northern Ireland since the early 1800's?

Since the early 1800s? They've been going at it since the Reformation. Don't talk about something you obviously have no understanding of. Northern Ireland has only existed since 1921.

But yes, living in Northern Ireland, as someone born into the Catholic community but who has no support for the IRA, I know what it's like to be treated like I do anyway because of who people think I am.

All I want for Northern Ireland is to be able to live my life, do my job, have a good time with my friends and family, just like the vast, vast majority of people all over the world. I won't accept anyone suggesting my life (or my world) is expendable to make some kind of point to terrorists who would do things in my name. Fuck anyone who thinks that.

Unless you've been extremely selective in your news and radio selections, you've no doubt heard that groups like Al Qaeda, in the name of Islam, declared war on the westen civilization in the early 1990's.

They want the US out of the Middle East and they want to over-throw the governments of the states there currently so they can set up a caliphate across the Arab world.

But I couldn't honestly give a flying fuck what they want. It doesn't matter what they say, they're just another group who want power and are willing to kill anyone to get it.

Coming from a man who denies racism is the main problem in France right now, I believe you missed the point.

Yes, I see the point. You think by carrying out a nuclear holocaust, you will suddenly make Islamic terrorists see sense and stop killing themselves in an effort to kill others. Yes, I can really see the fucking point in that. Threaten a bunch of suicidal maniacs who kill ordinary people with: the threat to kill more ordinary people.

The point is simply this: if they want a war, you are obviously willing to give it to them, and fuck everyone else who gets in the way.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

If you would ever take the time to know me, you would know that my responses were merely comedic hyperbole... or do you really suppose that I advocate killing Colts fans and pregnant puppies for the actions of terrorists?

Why should I take the time to know you? This is supposedly a serious forum and this is a thread with several people advocating a nuclear holocaust. I can really see the humour value in that.

I don't want a thing to do with you if that's your nature.

 

[Gato_Solo]

No moderates in Islam have ever condemned these groups? Have a word with yourself. A really big one.

Two words. Show me.

Since the early 1800s? They've been going at it since the Reformation. Don't talk about something you obviously have no understanding of. Northern Ireland has only existed since 1921.

I guess next you'll tell me how wrong I am for pointing out that most of this started when England and Spain were at each others throats and, fearing an invasion in the North by Vatican-backed Spain, the English royalty flooded the area with Protestants in order to keep the Catholic from revolting. Spare me your ignorance on my knowledge. It's boring.

But yes, living in Northern Ireland, as someone born into the Catholic community but who has no support for the IRA, I know what it's like to be treated like I do anyway because of who people think I am.

You might try something besides vitriol to get your point across, then.

All I want for Northern Ireland is to be able to live my life, do my job, have a good time with my friends and family, just like the vast, vast majority of people all over the world. I won't accept anyone suggesting my life (or my world) is expendable to make some kind of point to terrorists who would do things in my name. Fuck anyone who thinks that.

When I said almost the exact same thing, I was treated to derision. I can't remember if you were the one who said my view was simplified, but, after a while, you all start to sound the same, anyway.

They want the US out of the Middle East and they want to over-throw the governments of the states there currently so they can set up a caliphate across the Arab world.

Nope. They want the entire world.

But I couldn't honestly give a flying fuck what they want. It doesn't matter what they say, they're just another group who want power and are willing to kill anyone to get it.

You'd better, if only to defend yourself if the time comes.

Yes, I see the point. You think by carrying out a nuclear holocaust, you will suddenly make Islamic terrorists see sense and stop killing themselves in an effort to kill others. Yes, I can really see the fucking point in that. Threaten a bunch of suicidal maniacs who kill ordinary people with: the threat to kill more ordinary people.

You don't, or, perhaps, you refuse to. Either way, it's not worth the time to explain it because you would refuse to see it anyway.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

Two words. Show me.

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=10148
http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=9927
http://www.iwar.org.uk/news-archive/2005/07-21.htm
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-07/07/article07.shtml
http://www.islamawareness.net/Europe/Spain/cair.html
http://www.ksax.com/KSTPTV/S11902.html
http://www.solomonstarnews.com/drupal-4.4.1/?q=node/view/5137

etc. etc.

I guess next you'll tell me how wrong I am for pointing out that most of this started when England and Spain were at each others throats and, fearing an invasion in the North by Vatican-backed Spain, the English royalty flooded the area with Protestants in order to keep the Catholic from revolting. Spare me your ignorance on my knowledge. It's boring.

But you're wrong. I'm not being ignorant about anything, you're just wrong. Britain has been a presence in Ireland for roughly 800 years, it goes back a long way. The religious aspect to the conflict was only introduced when King Henry VIII made England a Protestant country and declared himself head of the church, while the people of Ireland remained Catholic.

Even then, many of the most famous Irish rebels throughout history have been Protestants. It's not a religious dispute, but a political dispute with a religious subtext.

And yet, I still cannot see your point in raising it.

You might try something besides vitriol to get your point across, then.

?????

I go and play football in a Loyalist area and get beaten by people there, who I've never spoke to before. When I was kid I got abused by British soldiers, called a "paddy bastard" or a "fenian cunt" on my way to school.

What are you talking about? I'm not talking about posting on the internet, I'm talking about how people treat you in every day life, how people make assumptions about you because of where you were born or your family name.

I don't consider mine or anyone in my family to be expendable to make some kind of political point. Which is why I can understand that feeling in anyone, whether they be living in New York or Damascus: why should we be worth incinerating to make a point?

When I said almost the exact same thing, I was treated to derision. I can't remember if you were the one who said my view was simplified, but, after a while, you all start to sound the same, anyway.

It wasn't me.

Nope. They want the entire world.

Two words. Show me.

You'd better, if only to defend yourself if the time comes.

Don't be ridiculous.

You don't, or, perhaps, you refuse to. Either way, it's not worth the time to explain it because you would refuse to see it anyway.

Not even a particularly elegant cop-out.

 

[Gato_Solo]

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=10148
http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=9927
http://www.iwar.org.uk/news-archive/2005/07-21.htm
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-07/07/article07.shtml
http://www.islamawareness.net/Europe/Spain/cair.html
http://www.ksax.com/KSTPTV/S11902.html
http://www.solomonstarnews.com/drupal-4.4.1/?q=node/view/5137

etc. etc.

And all of them recent in regards to 9/11. Why? Because they knew that something bad was going to happen to them! They knew that, at that point, perhaps they let their more fanatical brethren, whom they let run free for so long, had finally gotten them into serious trouble. Spare me the usual lines.

But you're wrong. I'm not being ignorant about anything, you're just wrong. Britain has been a presence in Ireland for roughly 800 years, it goes back a long way. The religious aspect to the conflict was only introduced when King Henry VIII made England a Protestant country and declared himself head of the church, while the people of Ireland remained Catholic.

Until the years before your war with Spain, it was strictly political.
When it became a Catholic vs Protestant problem, the fighting turned inwards.

Even then, many of the most famous Irish rebels throughout history have been Protestants. It's not a religious dispute, but a political dispute with a religious subtext.

Looks a whole lot different from the outside. Perhaps you are too close to the issue...

And yet, I still cannot see your point in raising it.

The muslims, too, claim their activities are based solely upon political issues, but, when their fanatical bretheren speak, they use words like "Crusade", "Anti-islamic", "infidel", etc. They want it to be a religious fight, just as some of your 'countrymen' want it to be a religious fight.

I go and play football in a Loyalist area and get beaten by people there, who I've never spoke to before. When I was kid I got abused by British soldiers, called a "paddy bastard" or a "fenian cunt" on my way to school.

So? Cry me a river. Words hurt, I'll agree. Physical abuse hurts, I'll agree there, too. The question that begs to be asked is this..."Did you give as good as you got?"

What are you talking about? I'm not talking about posting on the internet, I'm talking about how people treat you in every day life, how people make assumptions about you because of where you were born or your family name.

Which nobody knows til you tell them. Nice try.

I don't consider mine or anyone in my family to be expendable to make some kind of political point. Which is why I can understand that feeling in anyone, whether they be living in New York or Damascus: why should we be worth incinerating to make a point?

So you let others fight your battles for you. Another bad trait which leads to dependence, rather than independence.

It wasn't me.

Didn't have to be. It follows the same pattern of "It's not a good idea until I think of it..." which permeates modern society.

Don't be ridiculous.

Once again...somebody must do your job for you...

Not even a particularly elegant cop-out.

Why? Because it's true?

 

[Bobby Hogg]

And all of them recent in regards to 9/11. Why? Because they knew that something bad was going to happen to them! They knew that, at that point, perhaps they let their more fanatical brethren, whom they let run free for so long, had finally gotten them into serious trouble. Spare me the usual lines.

They're not all in regards to 9/11. Good effort, though. You said originally said no condemnation was issued from moderate Islam, now you're qualifying that statement by saying it's recent. Perhaps they're condemning because they actually think it's wrong?

Who are you to assume they aren't?

Maybe I should have said this to you instead:

You can read. Look it up yourself...

Until the years before your war with Spain, it was strictly political.
When it became a Catholic vs Protestant problem, the fighting turned inwards.

This is nonsense. Like I said, most of the significant Irish rebels of the past have been Protestants. The original 1798 fenian up-rising against the British was led by Protestants. The war is about getting the British out of Ireland, not because Protestants and Catholics disagree about religious issues.

Looks a whole lot different from the outside. Perhaps you are too close to the issue...

Don't be stupid. You don't know a thing about it, as demonstrated by your attempts to discuss the history of the conflict with me. The dispute is Nationalists/Republicans vs. Loyalists/Unionists. People who want a free, united Ireland against people who wish to remain part of Britain. Anyone who views it differently, it's because their thought processes are too simplistic to get past the religious subtext or because they don't know a fucking thing about it. Both of which applies to you, it would appear.

The muslims, too, claim their activities are based solely upon political issues, but, when their fanatical bretheren speak, they use words like "Crusade", "Anti-islamic", "infidel", etc. They want it to be a religious fight, just as some of your 'countrymen' want it to be a religious fight.

They don't, though. They don't want to convert Protestants or Catholics, they want a united Ireland.

Many ordinary Muslims have valid political concerns about the leaders of their nations and the involvement of the West in their affairs. If you choose to ignore these in order to get into a religious squabble with fanatics, then there is no hope to solving the problems that cause Islamic terrorism.

So? Cry me a river. Words hurt, I'll agree. Physical abuse hurts, I'll agree there, too. The question that begs to be asked is this..."Did you give as good as you got?"

I'm not asking for sympathy. And no, I've never abused anyone for being a Protestant, nor started a fight with anyone over it. That's the simple answer to your question.

The reason I got into trouble in the past was because of naivety, not aggressiveness. I grew up friends with Protestants, so I saw no reason why I shouldn't go into Loyalist areas and play football.

Which nobody knows til you tell them. Nice try.

Or they can tell by having seen you in your school's uniform, or by asking your name, or by asking what area you are from. When you're young and naive, you don't see the harm in these things.

So you let others fight your battles for you. Another bad trait which leads to dependence, rather than independence.

I work, I earn my money, I feed, clothe and house myself. What has that got to do with accepting that I should die for someone else's cause?

Didn't have to be. It follows the same pattern of "It's not a good idea until I think of it..." which permeates modern society.

You're accusing me of something I haven't done. Fuck you.

Once again...somebody must do your job for you...

Like I did for you by searching those sources. Well done, you managed to show a minor example of hypocrisy within one post.

Why? Because it's true?

Stop wasting my time with this. Either cop-out and shut up, or attempt to prove to me how killing more ordinary people scares terrorists who already kill a lot of ordinary people.

 

[Gato_Solo]

They're not all in regards to 9/11. Good effort, though. You said originally said no condemnation was issued from moderate Islam, now you're qualifying that statement by saying it's recent. Perhaps they're condemning because they actually think it's wrong?

Never said they were. Just commented on the recentness of them all.

Who are you to assume they aren't?

Who are you to assume they are?

This is nonsense. Like I said, most of the significant Irish rebels of the past have been Protestants. The original 1798 fenian up-rising against the British was led by Protestants. The war is about getting the British out of Ireland, not because Protestants and Catholics disagree about religious issues.

So why has the Catholic ve Protestant aspect captured the most headlines?

Don't be stupid. You don't know a thing about it, as demonstrated by your attempts to discuss the history of the conflict with me. The dispute is Nationalists/Republicans vs. Loyalists/Unionists. People who want a free, united Ireland against people who wish to remain part of Britain. Anyone who views it differently, it's because their thought processes are too simplistic to get past the religious subtext or because they don't know a fucking thing about it. Both of which applies to you, it would appear.

So now we're back to insults. Quite predictable, and shows your lack of insight on anyone who has the nerve to disagree with you. Too bad you don't give as good as you get off the net, eh?

They don't, though. They don't want to convert Protestants or Catholics, they want a united Ireland.

Right...So why did Alex Haley have such a tough time in Ireland (Are you Catholic or Protestant?).

Many ordinary Muslims have valid political concerns about the leaders of their nations and the involvement of the West in their affairs. If you choose to ignore these in order to get into a religious squabble with fanatics, then there is no hope to solving the problems that cause Islamic terrorism.

So why have they been so quiet for over 30 years? Why are they the ones funding the madrassas that spew the anti-west rhetoric? You choose to ignore the religious differences at your peril.

I'm not asking for sympathy. And no, I've never abused anyone for being a Protestant, nor started a fight with anyone over it. That's the simple answer to your question.

The reason I got into trouble in the past was because of naivety, not aggressiveness. I grew up friends with Protestants, so I saw no reason why I shouldn't go into Loyalist areas and play football.

Once again...Did you give as good as you got? It's not about the fight as much as it is about gaining some measure of respect.

Or they can tell by having seen you in your school's uniform,

Which I'm sure you wear your entire waking hours...even to play football...

or by asking your name, or by asking what area you are from.

Which you have to tell them...if they ask...

When you're young and naive, you don't see the harm in these things.

Why do you do it now?

I work, I earn my money, I feed, clothe and house myself. What has that got to do with accepting that I should die for someone else's cause?

It's not someone elses cause if it affects you.

You're accusing me of something I haven't done. Fuck you.

How adult. Also utterly predictable. When a man runs out of ideas, curses are usually all that's left.

Like I did for you by searching those sources. Well done, you managed to show a minor example of hypocrisy within one post.

Maybe...but these things haven't been posted before. Everything I told you to look up has been posted here in this forum...mostly by me. I don't like doing the same job twice.

Stop wasting my time with this. Either cop-out and shut up, or attempt to prove to me how killing more ordinary people scares terrorists who already kill a lot of ordinary people.

Who said anything about killing ordinary people. I said one nuke on Mecca...with no warning.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

Never said they were. Just commented on the recentness of them all.

Who are you to assume they are?

Go back and read your own post.

I'm not assuming anything, I'm simply showing you that "moderate Islam" has offer condemnations of terrorist attacks by fanatical groups, something you said has never happened.

So why has the Catholic ve Protestant aspect captured the most headlines?

Because that's all people choose to read. Intricate local politics are largely of no interest to the wider world. I don't begrudge anyone that, but I do try to correct them when they say it's a religious conflict.

Sinn Fein, the largest Nationalist party, are socialist and secular.

So now we're back to insults. Quite predictable, and shows your lack of insight on anyone who has the nerve to disagree with you. Too bad you don't give as good as you get off the net, eh?

It's insulting to presume you could post falsehoods and that they would somehow educate me on this subject.

If someone said the same things to me off the net, I'd respond in exactly the same manner. As it is, I've encountered ignorant Americans before who try to talk to me about Ireland, but none of them have ever presumed to try and educate me on the subject with ill-begotten opinions.

Right...So why did Alex Haley have such a tough time in Ireland (Are you Catholic or Protestant?).

Don't know what incident you are referring to.

So why have they been so quiet for over 30 years? Why are they the ones funding the madrassas that spew the anti-west rhetoric? You choose to ignore the religious differences at your peril.

I don't know if they have been quiet for 30 years. As seen before, your assertions that condemnations have not been made has been wrong. It's not such a stretch to suggest you are wrong again.

Why does the USA offer condemnation of cruel, undemocratic regimes, yet consider the Saudis and Uzbeks to be allies?

Once again...Did you give as good as you got? It's not about the fight as much as it is about gaining some measure of respect.

I don't understand what you are getting at here. No, I have never insulted anyone for being a Protestant even if they have insulted me.

As for defending myself, of course. Self-preservation. However, once I'm out of harm's way, I did not go about inflicting retribution on people who had nothing to do with attacking me.

Which I'm sure you wear your entire waking hours...even to play football...

Which you have to tell them...if they ask...

Why do you do it now?

This is silly. I already explained that I saw no harm in answering questions. I don't even see why you're doing this: I'm telling you how people find out "what" you are. You continuously stretch things out until the original point is lost.

It's not someone elses cause if it affects you.

Bollocks, frankly. Tell it to the people killed in the Oklahoma bombings. What cause did they die for?

Who said anything about killing ordinary people. I said one nuke on Mecca...with no warning.

Mecca has around 1.4 million inhabitants.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Go back and read your own post.

I'm not assuming anything, I'm simply showing you that "moderate Islam" has offer condemnations of terrorist attacks by fanatical groups, something you said has never happened.

So...up until now, no moderate Islam has said anything resembling a condemnation. Better?

Because that's all people choose to read. Intricate local politics are largely of no interest to the wider world. I don't begrudge anyone that, but I do try to correct them when they say it's a religious conflict.

Sinn Fein, the largest Nationalist party, are socialist and secular.

If that's all we have to read, ie, nobody says anything different, then how do you...as one person vs several hundred, become insulted when somebody says this is what they have been taught, and, AFAIK, it's the truth. Living in a the country does not make you an expert in everything in the country.

It's insulting to presume you could post falsehoods and that they would somehow educate me on this subject.

With anger and derision? No wonder you got your ass kicked when you were little...

If someone said the same things to me off the net, I'd respond in exactly the same manner. As it is, I've encountered ignorant Americans before who try to talk to me about Ireland, but none of them have ever presumed to try and educate me on the subject with ill-begotten opinions.

So now...because of your personal experience, everything I've read about the subject is a lie, and I'm just an 'ignorant American'. All my texts were naught but 'ill-begotten' opinions. Hmm...Perhaps I should write my congressman, the NEA, and the textbook companies, and the entire free press, and let them know to ask you whenever they go to print about Ireland.

Don't know what incident you are referring to.

Alex Haley, the author of the book Roots found that he had distant relatives who lived in Ireland. When he went to talk to them, he was denied entry into their home until they knew which religion (Catholic or Protestant) he followed.

I don't know if they have been quiet for 30 years. As seen before, your assertions that condemnations have not been made has been wrong. It's not such a stretch to suggest you are wrong again.

Since you didn't post anything before 9/11/2001, isn't it more likely that I am correct than not?

Why does the USA offer condemnation of cruel, undemocratic regimes, yet consider the Saudis and Uzbeks to be allies?

For the same reason every other country on the planet does...money.

I don't understand what you are getting at here. No, I have never insulted anyone for being a Protestant even if they have insulted me.

Never said you did...

As for defending myself, of course. Self-preservation. However, once I'm out of harm's way, I did not go about inflicting retribution on people who had nothing to do with attacking me.

Never said that either.

This is silly. I already explained that I saw no harm in answering questions. I don't even see why you're doing this: I'm telling you how people find out "what" you are. You continuously stretch things out until the original point is lost.

How is it stretched out, when one of my original points was the fact that this is a religious fight.

Bollocks, frankly. Tell it to the people killed in the Oklahoma bombings. What cause did they die for?

Missed the point again.

Mecca has around 1.4 million inhabitants.

The city of Mecca...not the shrine.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

So...up until now, no moderate Islam has said anything resembling a condemnation. Better?

I showed you that they have.

If that's all we have to read, ie, nobody says anything different, then how do you...as one person vs several hundred, become insulted when somebody says this is what they have been taught, and, AFAIK, it's the truth. Living in a the country does not make you an expert in everything in the country.

True, but then it's not just me who'll tell you it's not a religious dispute. It's not about Catholicism vs. Protestantism, over who is right and who is wrong. It's about whether Northern Ireland should be part of Ireland or Britain.

The religious divide simply aligns roughly across the political one. But not completely. Ireland's state religion is Catholic, Britain's is Protestant.

However, like I said, many Protestants have led Irish rebellions against the British. How many times will you ignore this point?

With anger and derision? No wonder you got your ass kicked when you were little...

Yes, I do tend to treat people with derision when they belligerently utter falsehoods at me in an attempt to suggest I am wrong.

So now...because of your personal experience, everything I've read about the subject is a lie, and I'm just an 'ignorant American'. All my texts were naught but 'ill-begotten' opinions. Hmm...Perhaps I should write my congressman, the NEA, and the textbook companies, and the entire free press, and let them know to ask you whenever they go to print about Ireland.

You've read nothing on the subject. I'm almost certain.

Alex Haley, the author of the book Roots found that he had distant relatives who lived in Ireland. When he went to talk to them, he was denied entry into their home until they knew which religion (Catholic or Protestant) he followed.

Religious bigotry. They do exist.

Since you didn't post anything before 9/11/2001, isn't it more likely that I am correct than not?

Not necessarily, because most of the online news media when searching brings up results regarding recent months and years.

How is it stretched out, when one of my original points was the fact that this is a religious fight.

It's been stretched out because I brought it up as an as example of being mistreated because of things done supposedly in your name. This is becase you are suggesting blowing up the Islamic holy shrine and the millions of people surrounding it, in response to a small group of people who only claim to represent their interpretation of the entire religion.

Not only would your response destroy something important to hundreds of millions of people who harbour no desire to fight the USA, but it would probably anger them enough to make them want that fight.

The city of Mecca...not the shrine.

The shrine is in the city.

 

[Gato_Solo]

I showed you that they have.

I see nothing from before 2001. I see plenty about terrorism in general before 2001, but nothing from Islam...Strange.

True, but then it's not just me who'll tell you it's not a religious dispute. It's not about Catholicism vs. Protestantism, over who is right and who is wrong. It's about whether Northern Ireland should be part of Ireland or Britain.

The religious divide simply aligns roughly across the political one. But not completely. Ireland's state religion is Catholic, Britain's is Protestant.

However, like I said, many Protestants have led Irish rebellions against the British. How many times will you ignore this point?

I haven't.

Yes, I do tend to treat people with derision when they belligerently utter falsehoods at me in an attempt to suggest I am wrong.

And since you are the only person from Ireland I know, and I've heard from no others, then I have to take what you say with a grain of salt, when compared to most of what I've either read, was taught, or heard.

You've read nothing on the subject. I'm almost certain.

So now you can see over my shoulder from up to 25 years in the past. You must have one mean telescope...

Religious bigotry. They do exist.

Thank you. Now if you can tell me how many of them take up arms, then we'll know for sure how much of this is religious and how much is political...then again, you said yourself...

The religious divide simply aligns roughly across the political one. But not completely.

Tells me that there is a religious aspect to this you don't like to admit.

Not necessarily, because most of the online news media when searching brings up results regarding recent months and years.

Oh, really? I can call up the Munich Olympics of 1972, but not one Islamic condemnation of that same act. I can also call up the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993, and nary a whisper. How about that? I can even pull up stories on the Tommy Gun and the IRA in the 1930's, and not one Islamic condemnation of terrorism before 9/11.I found this, though... as a rebuttal to your rosy look. Yes...it's a condemnation as well, but it also talks about the rejoicing of muslims after the attacks. Read this, too. Interesting stuff, is it not?

It's been stretched out because I brought it up as an as example of being mistreated because of things done supposedly in your name. This is becase you are suggesting blowing up the Islamic holy shrine and the millions of people surrounding it, in response to a small group of people who only claim to represent their interpretation of the entire religion.


Not only would your response destroy something important to hundreds of millions of people who harbour no desire to fight the USA, but it would probably anger them enough to make them want that fight.

The shrine is in the city.

Once again, you add the city to the equation. Like we don't have nukes small enough to take out the shrine without taking out the city.

Then again, maybe you're right. Since they declared war on us in the name of Islam, maybe we should be reckless, like you think we are, and just start systematically destroying every Muslim we run across...You, BobbyHogg are more racist that I could ever imagine...

 

[Leslie]

I see nothing from before 2001. I see plenty about terrorism in general before 2001, but nothing from Islam...Strange.

you could like...I dunno...um...LOOK or something... Your being not arsed to look doesn't mean it never happened.

http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa091499.htm

The Moslem Board of Russia has circulated a statement following a chain of terrorist acts in that country.
The text of the statement was received by Itar-Tass (Russian news agency) on Monday. "The Moslems of Russia could not perceive without pain and emotional shock the news about terrorist acts that claimed the lives of hundreds of civilians, including defenseless children, women and old people.

"An actual war of terror has been launched against all people of the Russian Federation, irrespective of the ethnic group or religious faith, with the aim to destabilize the situation in the country.

"The Moslems, like all the people of goodwill, are condemning this ruthless and inhumane murder of innocent people. Such actions are contradicting the principles of all world religions, including Islam.

"During these tragic days in the history of our country, we are appealing to all citizens of Russia to keep their unity, including inter-ethnic relations, so as to thwart any criminal plots to destabilize the situation in the country. All of us should remember that Russia's strength is in the unity of its peoples and this unity should be preserved, especially during these hard times for our Homeland.

"We are also extending our sincere condolences to the relatives of the dead and all the victims of those tragedies."

http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/terror-scholars.html

The temptation is strong for Muslims to give up and say: "Even if we condemn terrorism, we are still labelled as terrorists. We might as well not condemn it at all." But to do this would be to fall into the media's trap. The media must now be allowed to malign Islam by giving the impression that the religion condones senseless violence and cruelty against innocent civilians. However much the media seek to present Islam in this distorted way, the Muslims must strive to present the true picture.

One aspect of the Indian Airlines hijacking has not received the attention it deserves. This has been the condemnation __ in both actions and words __ by Muslim scholars of the hijacking. For the first time, the voice of Muslim orthodoxy and scholarship, as embodied by the Taliban, has come out clearly against this act of violence, directed at innocent civilians, aimed at achieving a political cause. The Taliban have taken this position despite the fact that the cause in question is one they support.

http://www.alislam.org/terrorism.html


[font=Georgia, Arial]

[font=Georgia, Arial]"As far as Islam is concerned, it categorically rejects and condemns every form of terrorism. It does not provide any cover or justification for any act of violence, be it committed by an individual, a group or a government..... I most strongly condemn all acts and forms of terrorism because it is my deeply rooted belief that not only Islam but also no true religion, whatever its name, can sanction violence and bloodshed of innocent men, women and children in the name of God."[/font] [font=Arial, serif](Reference: "Murder in the Name of Allah" by Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad[/font]

(First published in English by Lutterworth Press in 1989 - http://www.alislam.org/library/books/mna/index.html )

[/font]

 

[Gato_Solo]

you could like...I dunno...um...LOOK or something... Your being not arsed to look doesn't mean it never happened.

I did. Now I've got to argue with you, too?

http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa091499.htm

Talks about the Oklahoma and Russia bombings being blamed on Islam, but not being caused by Islamic terrorists. Strike one.

[url="http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/terror-scholars.html"]

Ahhh...the Taliban. I'll give you that one, but, considering the source, I'll take it with a grain of salt. We're talking news stories, not books and interfaith articles. Strike two.

http://www.alislam.org/terrorism.html

It's a book, not a news article. Strike three...you're out. Guess you were too arsed to actually go through the whole argument, and just fixated on one aspect.