Will they ever learn

[Gonz]

We are in the middle of a financial mess. It's nowhere near as bad as some would have you believe but it's pretty damned ugly. A readers digest version of what happened...

The dot com bubble burst (blame Petsdotcom)
In order that nobody feel bad, the gov't started a new bubble called housing. They "suggested" (can you say mob boss?) the banks give anyone who is breathing a loan (breathing was optional). Hell, give 'em money to buy a house (remember 125% mortgages?) Make damned sure that people who could not afford their $350 apartment rent could get a homeloan for $225,000. No questions asked. Illegal aliens want houses? Stop asking for ID & proof of employment.

Fast forward....

$7.1 triilion in promised government handouts (so far)

Now, just weeks after this gets out of hand, (BofA, Chase & Wells Fargo were "suggested" to take gov't loans-King Paulson insisted-even though they didn't need 'em)

Good. Now the government finger is in every pie.

OK so far?

Take a company that is losing it's ass. The bank pulls its line of credit, cause the company couldn't afford it any longer. That means that some (all?) of it's workers get shafted. No severance or vacation pay, no insurance. The workers stage a sit-in. They're gonna force that mean old corporation to cough up money it doesn't have.

Time for government involvement -

Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich Monday ordered the state to stop doing business with Bank of America over its refusal to loan money to a Chicago window maker.

Rod? Read more about him elsewhere in this forum.

So, if a bank decides it's no longer financially reasonable to offer credit to a cash starved company, the state will step in & demand that you give them money. After all, you took the bailout money (Don't give me that you didn't need it stuff mister, you still took it!!!)

These are the people you want running your healthcare?

CHICAGO, Dec. 8 (UPI) -- Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich Monday ordered the state to stop doing business with Bank of America over its refusal to loan money to a Chicago window maker.

About 200 workers at Republic Windows & Doors were in the fourth day of a sit-in to protest the sudden shutdown of the firm and the company's refusal to issue severance and vacation pay. The company has said Bank of America's decision to cut the company's line of credit made it impossible for it to give the required 60 days notice under federal law or to pay its workers.

Bank of America has said it isn't responsible for the company's financial obligations.

Blagojevich joined workers at their sit-in and noted the federal government gave billions of dollars to banks.

"I am here to announce we put some pressure on these forces so these factories can stay open and workers can keep their jobs," Blagojevich said. He said he would seek a court order Tuesday.

Mark Meinster of the United Electrical Workers Union told NBC News Monday night that a meeting Monday between workers and officials of the company and the bank had been "productive."

"I'm one step below cautiously optimistic," he said, "but that's better than (Sunday)."

Meinster said the parties would meet again Tuesday, but he said if the matter is not resolved by Wednesday there would be a "massive protest" in Chicago.

U.S. Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., told WLS-TV, Chicago, he would prefer sitting down with bank officials to see if they will change their minds.

U.S. Rep. Luis Gutierrez, D-Ill., said the company has agreed to open its books and he plans to inspect them. He said he wants to make sure company officials are being forthright and not planning to shut down in Chicago only to open someplace where it is less expensive to do business.

 

[chcr]

Is that what you think?

 

[GrandCaravanSE]

Is that what you think?

I think that is what he thinks knows

 

[spike]

These are the people you want running your healthcare?

Healthcare is unrealted to the current finincial crisis. Maybe you should say "are these the people you want protecting us from terrorism?".

Slipping an unrelated agenda of yours in doesn't work. Maybe you think our government is worse than t he 30+ other countries that are handling healthcare more successfully than our currrent screwed up system?

 

[2minkey]

yeah gonz i don't understand what you're saying here.

if there is any bureaucratic incompetency here it is on the part of the failing businesses that are being bailed out. it's that kind of incompetence you don't want running health care. oh, wait, it is already. you've got a bunch of wankers with finance MBAs running both camps. only government mistake here is giving the miserable fucks some more money to waste. operationally, you're seeing the glory of private mismanagement.

 

[Gonz]

So, the Governor, forcing BofA to make a bad loan, thus running BofA's business, isn't a ptoblem?

Hey, spike, military IS a constitutionally mandated authorization. Healthcare is not.

 

[2minkey]

that is a good point in this specific instance.

but we both know this specific instance is but part of a far wider indictment that you're seeking, as another example of your broader ideas on the relative merit of gubmint v private industry running shit.

 

[Gonz]

Every time communism is tried, it fails. The gov't can't help itself but to destroy anything it gets its fingers into.

Private industry fails. But it doesn't force us all down with it. Failure tends to strengthen, instead of weaken as in the gov't model, capitalism.

This specific instance is just another example, and warning, of things to come, unless we all wake up & take back our government.

The auto industry bailout is gonna give us crappy cars with better gas mileage. Guess what the consumre wants, now that petrol is back under $3.00/G. It doesn't matter, Pelosi, et al, wants us to drive Matchbox cars. Wanna bet she isn't in a Yugo?

 

[spike]

Every time communism is tried, it fails. The gov't can't help itself but to destroy anything it gets its fingers into.

Actually 30+ countries have better healthcare systems than us which are government run.

Private industry fails. But it doesn't force us all down with it. Failure tends to strengthen, instead of weaken as in the gov't model, capitalism.

Look at the current fiasco to disprove that point.

This specific instance is just another example, and warning, of things to come, unless we all wake up & take back our government.

We just did that, that's why we have a much better president on his way in.

The auto industry bailout is gonna give us crappy cars with better gas mileage. Guess what the consumre wants, now that petrol is back under $3.00/G. It doesn't matter, Pelosi, et al, wants us to drive Matchbox cars. Wanna bet she isn't in a Yugo?

People still want more efficient cars. These gas prices are temporary.

 

[2minkey]

Every time communism is tried, it fails. The gov't can't help itself but to destroy anything it gets its fingers into.

Private industry fails. But it doesn't force us all down with it. Failure tends to strengthen, instead of weaken as in the gov't model, capitalism.

This specific instance is just another example, and warning, of things to come, unless we all wake up & take back our government.

The auto industry bailout is gonna give us crappy cars with better gas mileage. Guess what the consumre wants, now that petrol is back under $3.00/G. It doesn't matter, Pelosi, et al, wants us to drive Matchbox cars. Wanna bet she isn't in a Yugo?

what is this about communism? i didn't notice uncle karl in here.

look, the government can do some things better than private industry. some things are not best handled by those with profit margins in mind, particularly short term profits per MBAism and the holiest of holies, everyone get ready for the name of our Lord, "shareholder value."

i'm not sure how much familiarity you have with how decisions are made at high levels of big corporations, but if you saw that stuff in action, close up and ugly, well, you might have a slightly different perspective.

consider this as well. given our culture and our ingrained suspicion of govermenmnt as inefficient and, well, retarded, and our strong proclivity toward private solutions... don't you think that pretty much anything that could be done well, profitably, would be in the hands of private business by now? so government is left with the dull chores that need to be done. think of the drudgery of your local probate court. it's horrifying. it's terribly time consuming. it's a giant fucking waste of everybody's time, but, oh yeah, somebody has to sort that shit out. and guess who gets the job? and guess who looks like a bunch of bureaucratic losers?

hey, there's an idea, let's privatize probate court, and root out them commies!

 

[Gonz]

Government having a say in corporate matters is, in some measurable way, tantamount to communism. It's only a couple of steps away from a takeover.

look, the government can do some things better than private industry.

Like what?

Government doesn't have to worry about balancing the books. So, it has no need to find a better, faster, cheaper way. Waste. Waste taxpayers money & they'll print more. Waste corporate money & they'll remove you from your position (unless gov't is giving away money).

I can tell you thaqt there's a discernable difference in the way management works that has occccured during the last 20 years or so. It may help the shareholder but it sure as hell doesn't help the corporate image.

The Constitution spells out, in limitations & extent, what the job of the government is, and is not. The same holds true for each state. Things that are mandated must remain within the states boundries (probate courts) or the federal boundriesd (post). They have no legal authority to extend their power (SSA) but we haven't stopped them becasue we think it's in our best interest to dip our hands in teh til.

 

[spike]

Government doesn't have to worry about balancing the books. So, it has no need to find a better, faster, cheaper way. Waste. Waste taxpayers money & they'll print more.

Government also doesn't need to make a profit to keep the shareholders happy. They can focus on making people better rather than getting repeat customers or pimping pills.

Want to see some waste? Witness the expense and inefficiency of our healthcare system compared to the ones that work better. It's a staggering amount of waste.

Waste corporate money & they'll remove you from your position (unless gov't is giving away money).

You must have never worked in a corporation.

The Constitution spells out, in limitations & extent, what the job of the government is, and is not.

And you've proven time and again that you could give a shit about the Constitution. So get off it.

 

[Gonz]

And you've proven time and again that you could give a shit about the Constitution. So get off it.

Since I'm the only one that has read it (apparently) & continues to defend it, you're incorrect on that assumption.

 

[spike]

No, it's been pointed out before that you've either not read it, read it incorrectly, or didn't comprehend it when I've had to defend it against your attacks.

 

[2minkey]

You must have never worked in a corporation.

well, at least not at any level where true insight into how they work was gleaned.

so gonz you wanna form a corporation and go after that probate court business? you said you wanted an example...

 

[Gonz]

so gonz you wanna form a corporation and go after that probate court business? you said you wanted an example...

Sorry, the courts are mandated government jurisdiction.

 

[2minkey]

right. so start asking yourself why that's never been challenged. haven't they privatized some prisons? shit probate "court" is mostly administrative, they could outsource a huge amount of the functions of it even if they needed to retain "real" judges 'n shit. git on it hoss.

 

[Gonz]

Prisons are not, technically, part of the judiciary. They are under local control.

Challenge away...it's constitutionally mandated government responsibility.

Roads, stamps & armies.

 

[2minkey]

roads are built by contractors. armies are increasingly.

better get your shoes shined up.

 

[Gonz]

Then we should go back & force our lawmakers to follow their limitations & get our own hand out of the til. Stop the stupid "social ills" laws & limit the regulations. Get gov't out of private industry.

Or,

for those of you who like this kind of stuff,

Change the Constitution. It's spells out how to do that too.