Recession? We don' need no steenkeen recession!

2minkey

bootlicker
That does seem to be where we're headed. Pelosi (I think) has suggested a federal department to bail out broke corporations.

Let 'em all go under. Fannie & Freddie can live under a bridge like th erest of the homeless & their CEO's can follow Ken Lay (to jail or a heart atack, I don't care)

i've wondered about this question. every bone in my body says more regulation is wrong. yet more regulation may have prevented the current crisis. but, then, where would where our economy have been, historically and to this point, with more regulation? i don't understand economics enough to render a smart opinion on this shit. but, apparently, peel, our resident draftsman turned wal-mart checker (barf), understands this more than any of us, so let's just default to his wisdom.
:lol2:
 

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
then why are they bailing these places out?

Classic view of cons is to butt-out period.
They aren't doing that now though.
Butting out = deregulate

As for the question, I don't know why Bush decided to get all socialist all of a sudden. Perhaps he realizes that if he doesn't step in and do something to help correct the market, he'll effectively be handing the election to Obama.

Dems tend to get elected during financial crisis..mostly because they do a better job on recovery. Reps are good in times of war and when the home-economy can afford a bit of a squeeze.
 

spike

New Member
Blame McCain former economic advisor.

''The fundamentals of our economy are strong," John McCain said as Wall Street went into white-knuckle panic over diving investor confidence. Does he believe that? It doesn't really matter, because the Republican has outsourced his economic policy to the ideologues whose opposition to regulations brought the financial markets to their knees.

McCain's former economic adviser is ex-Texas Sen. Phil Gramm. On Dec. 15, 2000, hours before Congress was to leave for Christmas recess, Gramm had a 262-page amendment slipped into the appropriations bill. It forbade federal agencies to regulate the financial derivatives that greased the skids for passing along risky mortgage-backed securities to investors.

And that, my friends, is why everything's falling apart. That is why the taxpayers are now on the hook for the follies of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Bear Stearns and now the insurance giant AIG to the tune of $85 billion.

On Monday, McCain issued a tough-talk statement that he was "glad" that the feds "have said no to using taxpayer money to bail out Lehman Brothers, a position I have spoken about throughout this campaign." On Tuesday, the government did the daddy of all bailouts. It took over AIG, fearing its bankruptcy could set off a cataclysmic chain of events.

And do you know where the problems lay at AIG? They weren't in its main insurance business. They were in its derivatives-trading unit.

Last February, Fortune Magazine called Gramm "McCain's Econ Brain." Gramm lost the official title of economic adviser for making an impolitic remark about this being "a nation of whiners." But Gramm's belief in letting speculators do as they please was never an issue. And even after he left the campaign, Gramm had been mentioned as a possible Treasury secretary in a McCain administration.

Another Gramm contribution was the "Enron loophole," which prevented federal oversight of Enron's electronic energy trading. Such favors proved very expensive to consumers but profitable to the Gramms. Enron CEO Ken Lay chaired Gramm's 1992 re-election campaign, and wife Wendy Gramm spent years on the Enron board, earning as much as $1.8 million, according to Public Citizen, a consumer advocate.

So McCain's reassurances to the little people that he won't let what's happening to them happen again is rather unconvincing. McCain now talks about the need for more regulations, but he's been highly stingy with the for-instances. He wants a commission to look into it.

(Too bad he didn't name Mitt Romney as his running mate. A former venture capitalist, Romney knows something about Wall Street.)

The Bush economy was built on baloney. It was built on keeping interest rates low so that people could borrow lots of money to spend on real estate and at the mall. The resulting housing bubble left middle-class people feeling prosperous, even as their earnings stagnated or fell.

The Democrats weren't exactly tigers on containing the housing bubble, but they did try to put the brakes on some of the lending outrages that are the root of the current crisis. For example, Barack Obama sponsored a bill that would have prevented lenders from pressing abusive loan terms onto unsophisticated, subprime borrowers. That went nowhere.

"I certainly don't fault Sen. McCain for these problems," Obama said early in the crisis, "but I do fault the economic philosophy he subscribes to."

Obama need not be so mild-mannered. McCain's economic philosophy is McCain's fault. He doesn't know much about economics — and has admitted as much — so his philosophy became a simple-minded faith in the opinion of others. And look whom he listens to.

Americans will be paying for this philosophy well into the 21st century.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/6007788.html
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
Here's a nice one for you.

Your link discusses a monologue by Rush Limbaugh. Have you read the entire monologue or simply ignored the link to it in your link's body of text?

HERE IT IS. He discusses the start ofn the mess and yoiur blogger discusses the continuation of the mess. You ignore the fact that the mess was started by democrats and use the continuation of the mess to blame those with whom you disagree.

I have posted articles, one from the New York Times, on how the Bush Administration tried to rein in the lending market and was thwarted by Democrats. Democrats stood in opposition to ANY reform of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and openly declared that there was no problem and called those who were trying to reform them alarmists.

Well, the "alarmists" were right. We are faced today with the result of that Democratic blockade.

See my next post for the New York Times STORY, not op-ed, in its entirety. Apparently, when used in full context and quote in an op-ed it loses all credibility so let's see how it stands by itself and what you have to say about it.
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...2575AC0A9659C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print

September 11, 2003
New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae
By STEPHEN LABATON

The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago.

Under the plan, disclosed at a Congressional hearing today, a new agency would be created within the Treasury Department to assume supervision of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored companies that are the two largest players in the mortgage lending industry.

The new agency would have the authority, which now rests with Congress, to set one of the two capital-reserve requirements for the companies. It would exercise authority over any new lines of business. And it would determine whether the two are adequately managing the risks of their ballooning portfolios.

The plan is an acknowledgment by the administration that oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- which together have issued more than $1.5 trillion in outstanding debt -- is broken. A report by outside investigators in July concluded that Freddie Mac manipulated its accounting to mislead investors, and critics have said Fannie Mae does not adequately hedge against rising interest rates.

''There is a general recognition that the supervisory system for housing-related government-sponsored enterprises neither has the tools, nor the stature, to deal effectively with the current size, complexity and importance of these enterprises,'' Treasury Secretary John W. Snow told the House Financial Services Committee in an appearance with Housing Secretary Mel Martinez, who also backed the plan.

Mr. Snow said that Congress should eliminate the power of the president to appoint directors to the companies, a sign that the administration is less concerned about the perks of patronage than it is about the potential political problems associated with any new difficulties arising at the companies.

The administration's proposal, which was endorsed in large part today by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, would not repeal the significant government subsidies granted to the two companies. And it does not alter the implicit guarantee that Washington will bail the companies out if they run into financial difficulty; that perception enables them to issue debt at significantly lower rates than their competitors. Nor would it remove the companies' exemptions from taxes and antifraud provisions of federal securities laws.

The proposal is the opening act in one of the biggest and most significant lobbying battles of the Congressional session.

After the hearing, Representative Michael G. Oxley, chairman of the Financial Services Committee, and Senator Richard Shelby, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, announced their intention to draft legislation based on the administration's proposal. Industry executives said Congress could complete action on legislation before leaving for recess in the fall.

''The current regulator does not have the tools, or the mandate, to adequately regulate these enterprises,'' Mr. Oxley said at the hearing. ''We have seen in recent months that mismanagement and questionable accounting practices went largely unnoticed by the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight,'' the independent agency that now regulates the companies.

''These irregularities, which have been going on for several years, should have been detected earlier by the regulator,'' he added.

The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight, which is part of the Department of Housing and Urban Development, was created by Congress in 1992 after the bailout of the savings and loan industry and concerns about regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which buy mortgages from lenders and repackage them as securities or hold them in their own portfolios.

At the time, the companies and their allies beat back efforts for tougher oversight by the Treasury Department, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation or the Federal Reserve. Supporters of the companies said efforts to regulate the lenders tightly under those agencies might diminish their ability to finance loans for lower-income families. This year, however, the chances of passing legislation to tighten the oversight are better than in the past.

Reflecting the changing political climate, both Fannie Mae and its leading rivals applauded the administration's package. The support from Fannie Mae came after a round of discussions between it and the administration and assurances from the Treasury that it would not seek to change the company's mission.

After those assurances, Franklin D. Raines, Fannie Mae's chief executive, endorsed the shift of regulatory oversight to the Treasury Department, as well as other elements of the plan.

''We welcome the administration's approach outlined today,'' Mr. Raines said. The company opposes some smaller elements of the package, like one that eliminates the authority of the president to appoint 5 of the company's 18 board members.

Company executives said that the company preferred having the president select some directors. The company is also likely to lobby against the efforts that give regulators too much authority to approve its products.

Freddie Mac, whose accounting is under investigation by the Securities and Exchange Commission and a United States attorney in Virginia, issued a statement calling the administration plan a ''responsible proposal.''

The stocks of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae fell while the prices of their bonds generally rose. Shares of Freddie Mac fell $2.04, or 3.7 percent, to $53.40, while Fannie Mae was down $1.62, or 2.4 percent, to $66.74. The price of a Fannie Mae bond due in March 2013 rose to 97.337 from 96.525.Its yield fell to 4.726 percent from 4.835 percent on Tuesday.

Fannie Mae, which was previously known as the Federal National Mortgage Association, and Freddie Mac, which was the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation, have been criticized by rivals for exerting too much influence over their regulators.

''The regulator has not only been outmanned, it has been outlobbied,'' said Representative Richard H. Baker, the Louisiana Republican who has proposed legislation similar to the administration proposal and who leads a subcommittee that oversees the companies. ''Being underfunded does not explain how a glowing report of Freddie's operations was released only hours before the managerial upheaval that followed. This is not world-class regulatory work.''

Significant details must still be worked out before Congress can approve a bill. Among the groups denouncing the proposal today were the National Association of Home Builders and Congressional Democrats who fear that tighter regulation of the companies could sharply reduce their commitment to financing low-income and affordable housing.

''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed.

''I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing,'' Mr. Watt said.
 

spike

New Member
Your link discusses a monologue by Rush Limbaugh. Have you read the entire monologue or simply ignored the link to it in your link's body of text?

Yes Jim, it debunks Rush. What's your point?

He discusses the start ofn the mess and yoiur blogger discusses the continuation of the mess. You ignore the fact that the mess was started by democrats and use the continuation of the mess to blame those with whom you disagree.

Actually Rush falsely attributes the mess and he corrects the matter.

I have posted articles, one from the New York Times, on how the Bush Administration tried to rein in the lending market and was thwarted by Democrats. Democrats stood in opposition to ANY reform of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and openly declared that there was no problem and called those who were trying to reform them alarmists.

You have posted opinion pieces, now I have posted two that disagree.

Well, the "alarmists" were right. We are faced today with the result of that Democratic blockade.

Wow, imagine that. You were wrong again. :laugh: Yet it is the result of republicans that you continue to ignore.

See my next post for the New York Times STORY, not op-ed, in its entirety. Apparently, when used in full context and quote in an op-ed it loses all credibility so let's see how it stands by itself and what you have to say about it.

I'll continue to post op-eds that disagree with you if you're unconcerned with real journalism.
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
Here's the key from the NYT STORY, not op-ed.

The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago.

Yet the link provided by Spike states that there was no effort on the part of the Bush Administrration to do anything. They in fact even cite the gold standard -- a common solution to inflation supported by many Patriot grooups like the Militia of Montana -- and privatization which Democrats have actively stood against.

Even the Democratic disasters he cites could have been reversed when Republicans ran the whole show for those 4 years. Why weren’t Fannie and Freddie privatized? Why wasn’t the gold standard restored to end inflation?
 

spike

New Member
In addition to blamin McCain's economic advisor another major fault is whatever idiot started the Iraq war.

Who knew spending a trillion dollars on a farce could effect anything?

Eyes are on Iraq war's effect on U.S. economy
By Sue Kirchhoff, Barbara Hagenbaugh and Adam Shell, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — More than a year after the U.S. invaded Iraq, the dire consequences some economists predicted — a possible worldwide recession or sharp drop in U.S. consumer spending — have not materialized.
The nation is in a period of strong growth, and business investment is surging. Federal defense spending is contributing to bottom-line economic expansion, jumping 20% from 2002-2003 and rising at a 13% annual rate in the first quarter of 2004. Individual companies are profiting from military contracts.

"Certainly, the war in Iraq and the events leading up to the war, including 9/11, have had an impact on our business," says Mark Deasy, director of public relations for MSA (Mine Safety Appliances) in Pittsburgh, which makes safety equipment such as respirators, gas detectors and other products. The firm has had record annual revenue and earnings since 2001.

Still, the increasingly tough Iraq occupation is taking a toll on the USA in some ways that are obvious, such as higher federal deficits and higher oil prices, and others that are more difficult to see, including investor unease.

The situation in Iraq, which has the world's second-largest proven oil reserves, has added $4 to $5 per barrel to oil prices, which recently set a record, not adjusted for inflation, some analysts say.

"Today, we still have a lot of uncertainty. A lot of that uncertainty is being offset by faster growth, but (growth) would be higher if it were not held down" by unease about Iraq, says Anthony Chan, chief economist of Banc One, who adds the surge in domestic business investment is being driven, in part, by tax breaks.

Restraining stock prices

More than 50% of those responding to the UBS May Index of Investor Optimism said the situation in Iraq was hurting the investment climate a lot. Only gas prices and outsourcing jobs overseas were cited more frequently. The 800-respondent monthly index tracks wealthier consumers, those with at least $10,000 in investments or savings.

Continued fighting in Iraq has held stocks in a narrower trading range.

Donald Straszheim, president of investment firm Straszheim Global Advisors, in a recent warning to clients said: "We see a series of unhappy global news events undermining any real investor enthusiasm. This is steep uphill territory for stocks in the short run."

The 24-hour diet of mostly negative news out of Iraq has not been lost on Wall Street. Stock traders' daily mood swings, which range from euphoria to angst and manifest themselves in buy-and-sell decisions, are driven largely by market-moving news nuggets that filter through the electronic veins of trading desks.

Setbacks in Iraq have weighed both on investor confidence and stock prices. The uncertainty caused by so-called Iraqnophobia is one reason the Dow Jones industrial average has experienced some tough days this year, after soaring 25% in 2003.

Iraq is one of the three "I's" — with rising interest rates and inflation — cited as major weights on the stock market, says Kim Goodwin, chief investment officer at State Street Research.

The major negatives associated with bad news out of Baghdad, such as investors' lower tolerance for risk and a possible change in the White House, helped put a lid on stock prices, she says. It has also prompted investors to focus their attention on war rather than stellar corporate profits.

"It is overdone, but the market hates uncertainty," Goodwin says.

Keitaro Matsuda, senior economist at Union Bank of California in San Francisco, says Iraq isn't the biggest issue affecting business confidence, but it is a factor. Fears of terrorism, the rise of the Chinese economy and improving technology worldwide are all leaving people with a "wait-and-see attitude," he says.

"Customers generally feel that they are facing a lot of uncertainty right now in the global economy," Matsuda says.

Oil prices have biggest impact

Some economists say the biggest impact on the U.S. economy is through oil prices. But it's hard to determine how much of the increase in the price of oil can be attributed to Iraq directly. Other issues, including terrorism fears, tight supplies, increased demand by China, uncertainty about OPEC output and political problems in key producer Venezuela, are contributing to price gains.

"There is great concern about Middle East stability in general," says James Williams of WTRG Economics in London, Ark.

"If I had to put a number to Iraq and the extra risk associated with our occupation, I would say about $4 per barrel," Williams says. But "I think it is a more general uncertainty than just Iraq."

The price for a barrel of crude oil hit a high of $42.45 on June 2 in trading in New York but has since edged lower after a pledge by OPEC to raise output. Oil closed at $37.28 a barrel Tuesday, off $1.38. Williams and other energy analysts note that in some ways Iraq might be helping rather than hurting. After falling to just a trickle, Iraqi oil output is at about the same level as before the war began.

Higher energy costs are seen as a tax on the economy. When consumers and businesses have to pay more for air conditioning or gasoline, they have less money to spend in other parts of the economy.

The Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas recently said expectations for higher oil prices are up 20%. That would reduce the growth in economic activity 0.7 percentage points over two to three years, the Dallas bank said.

Surging defense spending

The Iraq war and Homeland Security have contributed to a surge in federal defense spending, which has added a percentage point to U.S. economic growth since 2001. But higher defense spending is also adding to record federal budget deficits, with this year's deficit expected to top $400 billion.

The cost of U.S. operations in Iraq is approaching $150 billion. That includes two special spending bills, one including $71 billion and the other $56.4 billion for Iraq. Congress is now considering a White House request for $25 billion.

Higher federal deficits have not translated into higher long-term interest rates for a number of reasons, economists say, including slack in the economy, global competition and the Fed's drive to keep rates low. But some warn that could change as the economy rebounds.

"Both political parties are telling us they're going to cut the deficit in half over the next five years. If we're bogged down (in Iraq), that becomes more challenging," Chan says.

Warwick McKibbin, a professor at the Australian National University and a visiting scholar at the Brookings Institution, last year estimated the potential costs of a war in Iraq based on two scenarios: a quick victory and exit and a long war and occupation of up to five years, with five years of rebuilding financed by major countries. Under McKibbin's second scenario, the occupation had an adverse impact on investment, growth, consumption, interest rates and stocks for the decade of involvement.

"Unfortunately, the long-war scenario looks more probable," McKibbin says, adding his projections seem broadly on track "except that we factored in more non-U.S. funding, especially from Germany and France, which has still not emerged."

Contributing: Shell reported from New York

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2004-06-08-iraq-effect_x.htm
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
I'll continue to post op-eds that disagree with you if you're unconcerned with real journalism.

The New York Times story is a STORY by a real journalist, not a blogger. Do you have any real stories from recognized newspapers of record which support your contentions? I have posted the STORY, not an op-ed, from the NYT, a newspaper of record. Can you?

You are always bitching and moaning about op-eds not being real newspaper stories. Now what? The NYT is too conservative? They are too right wing?
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member

spike

New Member
Here's the key from the NYT STORY, not op-ed.

The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago.

Holy shit Bush recommended something. Does that somehow translate it your head to "The democrats caused this entire economic meltdown", That would be completely illogical.

Geez Jim.

Yet the link provided by Spike states that there was no effort on the part of the Bush Administrration to do anything.

Which link, which line, and what's your point?
 

spike

New Member
The New York Times story is a STORY by a real journalist, not a blogger. Do you have any real stories from recognized newspapers of record which support your contentions? I have posted the STORY, not an op-ed, from the NYT, a newspaper of record. Can you?

You are always bitching and moaning about op-eds not being real newspaper stories. Now what? The NYT is too conservative? They are too right wing?

You have posted a story that actually does nothing to support your claims. It says Bush recommended something once.

Sweet, another opinion piece. You're getting pretty desperate. However, you can't prove much of anything with a biased opinion piece.

Remember a few posts ago when I said this?

"I wonder if I could find an opinion piece that blames other things or people...that would make it fact right?"

Well that's exactly what I did. Now all of the sudden you have a problem with them. Does this mean you won't be posting anymore opinion pieces here? :banana:

Man, if i knew that's all I had to do I would have done that a long time ago.

Cheers Jimbo. Congrats.
 

2minkey

bootlicker
That's "defer" to his wisdom.

either word puts the meaning across, and you are correct in that "defer" would normally be the convention. but... "default" was used intentionally because of the nature of the conversation, about financial woes, genius. you missed the joke. next time, think about context before you get your panties all twisted, ummkay? maybe next time i'll italicize the "fun word" so you stand a better chance of getting it.
 
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