A Sad Day in Iraq...

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
Charging a man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

HeXp£Øi± said:
Captain Benjamin L. Willard

That one rings true.

Nope. He disobeyed the LOAC, and should be duly punished. Anything less, and we may as well just start lobbing nukes, because that's exactly where it'll end. If you lose your core values, then you are no better than the people you are fighting. If there is no difference, then there is no true end.
 

HeXp£Øi±

Well-Known Member
Gato_Solo said:
Nope. He disobeyed the LOAC, and should be duly punished. Anything less, and we may as well just start lobbing nukes, because that's exactly where it'll end. If you lose your core values, then you are no better than the people you are fighting. If there is no difference, then there is no true end.

Oh i definetely agree. I'm just stating what could be seen as a truism. I don't think the civilian public has a clue about what's really involved here. I don't know what the militaries punishment for this sort of thing is but it simply cannot be equated with a civilian crime. Murder in civilian life can get you life(or death). This case is going to get a great deal of coverage and i really hope the military doesn't judge this guy by civilian standards in order to appease the public. Murder yes but we put this man under the most extreme circumstances possible and asked him to kill for us. His duress is our doing.
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
HeXp£Øi± said:
Oh i definetely agree. I'm just stating what could be seen as a truism. I don't think the civilian public has a clue about what's really involved here. I don't know what the militaries punishment for this sort of thing is but it simply cannot be equated with a civilian crime. Murder in civilian life can get you life(or death). This case is going to get a great deal of coverage and i really hope the military doesn't judge this guy by civilian standards in order to appease the public. Murder yes but we put this man under the most extreme circumstances possible and asked him to kill for us. His duress is our doing.

Murder in a military court can get you life in prison or death as well. I'll give you the UCMJ definition of murder...It's located on this page...
 

HeXp£Øi±

Well-Known Member
Gato_Solo said:
Murder in a military court can get you life in prison or death as well.

Well these circumstances definetely won't call for that. The guy was engaged and under fire.
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
HeXp£Øi± said:
Well these circumstances definetely won't call for that. The guy was engaged and under fire.

Nope. The guy shot a wounded, and alledgedly unarmed, prisoner.
 

SouthernN'Proud

Southern Discomfort
I can't help but wonder...

How many of these cases would we have if other wars had been held during times with today's information access? WWI, for instance. If we had had "embedded reporters" covering every move certain platoons made...would there be an end to the "list of atrocities"?

War is dirty business. Does that justify any action a participant takes? Not really. But think about it...do we really believe that the Germans "played nice" in WWII? How about Viet Nam?

Wonder how popular perception of, say, the D-Day invasion might be altered if some reporter with a camera, microphone, and instant web access to the entire world had landed on that beach that day? What about Sherman's march? Pearl Harbor? Gettysburg? Even the Boston Tea Party would be subjected to closer scrutiny, doncha think?

Just one of the things I ponder on from time to time.
 

HeXp£Øi±

Well-Known Member
Gato_Solo said:
Nope. The guy shot a wounded, and alledgedly unarmed, prisoner.

Yes he was under fire. Why do you think all those guys were lying all over the ground? They just finished engaging them. The adrenaline does not wear off 30 seconds after a firefight. Just listen to their voices. I would say at worst this equates to a crime of passion. Like say a man killing his wife when he walks into the bedroom and finds her sleeping with another man. He clearly acted on an impulse.
 

PT

Off 'Motherfuckin' Topic Elite
I have to think that if the reporter had not been imbedded this would have just been another dead Iraqi. Now, the question is, should the reporters be embedded? Should we know what is going on? I know that this isn't the PC way of thinking, but sometimes I think we shouldn't.
 

PT

Off 'Motherfuckin' Topic Elite
Hex, read the story. There were five wounded Iraqis there from a firefight the day before. There were unarmed.
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
PT said:
I have to think that if the reporter had not been imbedded this would have just been another dead Iraqi. Now, the question is, should the reporters be embedded? Should we know what is going on? I know that this isn't the PC way of thinking, but sometimes I think we shouldn't.

You Can't Handle The Truth!
Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Quote from A Few Good Men...

Is this the future you want, PT? Secrecy and hidden agendas? I prefer the embeds to the system we had before...
 

HeXp£Øi±

Well-Known Member
PT said:
Hex, read the story. There were five wounded Iraqis there from a firefight the day before. There were unarmed.

I didn't read the story but i watched the video and got the clear impression that these men were engaged. If not than i am wrong. I'll investigate before arguing further.
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
HeXp£Øi± said:
I didn't read the story but i watched the video and got the clear impression that these men were engaged. If not than i am wrong. I'll investigate before arguing further.

There was weapons fire from outside that mosque, but those men were not engaged at the time...
 

HeXp£Øi±

Well-Known Member
In the pool video, gunfire can be heard from inside the mosque Saturday as the unit accompanied by Sites approached. At the entrance, Marines who were already in the building emerge. They are asked by an approaching Marine lieutenant if there were insurgents inside and if the Marines had shot any of them. A Marine can be heard responding affirmatively.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041116/D86D337G0.html

It's not clear if they mean the marines or insurgants.
It looks like the court will have to decide if these men actually were under fire. In a case like this that fact means everything imo.
 

catocom

Well-Known Member
ClaireBear said:
Cowardly?

Would you have the balls to give up your life in such a volatile way for a cause?

No I probably wouldn't, but I didn't grow-up in a place where is was more common.

These people think totally different than the west does. You can't say
what the suicide bomber thinks, or feels in words that make any since to me. :confused:

As for the Marine, I think he needs a psychiatric evaluation, before I could pass
and kind of judgment. Some people just snap in these high stress situations.
It doesn't mean he was "trained" wrong.
 

BeardofPants

New Member
SouthernN'Proud said:
That doesn't seem to be deterring the followers of Allah very much, now does it?

That's not fair - you can't blanket the entirety of one religion under that statement. Not ALL followers of the muslim faith are extremists.

As far as this guy goes, I'm not even gonna presume what goes on in someone's head when in this kind of situation. Regardless of your training, something like this is still .... I don't know.... I mean, kudos to those who do this stuff, cos I sure as hell couldn't. Who knows what mind-games go through these poor marines over there. He shouldn't have shot the un-armed Iraqi, and he should definitely be punished, but clearly, these are extenuating circumstances.
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
BeardofPants said:
That's not fair - you can't blanket the entirety of one religion under that statement. Not ALL followers of the muslim faith are extremists.

As far as this guy goes, I'm not even gonna presume what goes on in someone's head when in this kind of situation. Regardless of your training, something like this is still .... I don't know.... I mean, kudos to those who do this stuff, cos I sure as hell couldn't. Who knows what mind-games go through these poor marines over there. He shouldn't have shot the un-armed Iraqi, and he should definitely be punished, but clearly, these are extenuating circumstances.

Like I've said before...I beg to differ. We get trained with this at least once a year, and the Marines and Army at least once a month. It's dull, it's boring, and it could save your life. LOAC (Law Of Armed Conflict), ROE (Rules Of Engagement), UCMJ (Uniformed Code of Military Justice), and, believe it or not, the US Constitution all come into play in this instance. He broke a major rule of engagement by shooting a wounded, and possibly unarmed, enemy. He broke a law by shooting a wounded enemy who was putting up no resistance. He broke an Article by shooting an alledgedly unarmed enemy combatant. He knew the rules, and he broke the rules. Do not pass go, and do not collect 200 dollars...
 
:swing:

Flip:

Re: Democrats Boost Intensity As Race Narrows http://www.otcentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13199

Leslie said:
and...........don't be so cocksure about that one either

Quote:
But right now, the voters apparently aren’t seeing him the commander and chief in a favourable light, as Bush is losing support on his Iraq policy. According to a tracking poll, public support for the President dropped 10 points after outgoing weapons inspector David Kay said Iraq had no banned weapons. Meanwhile, a separate Newsweek poll puts Bush's support at 48 percent and suggests he’d lose an election to Democratic front-runner John Kerry

Go Kerry!!!!!:headbang:

Flop:

Leslie said:
I wanted Kerry? what the FUCK? um...NO. Nice assuming though. He would have been bad for my country too. I didn't want either fucking one of them.

..... Everything in here you've attributed to me is the EXACT opposite of what I think.


When John Kerry was in Viet Nam and "in a manner reminiscent of Genjis Kahn" shot a wounded VC teenager in the back as the kid ran away from him, he was awarded the Silver Star. The the libs made it a high point at the Democratic National Convention.

When a U.S. Marine in the course of doing his job kills an Iraqi terrorist the Liberal Media is guaranteed to take the events out of context, blow them out of proportion, and in doing so show themselves as the dispicable traitors to America that they are.

This terrorist was pretending to be dead under a blanket for a reason. If, in fact, the terrorists had taken up the tactic of pretending to be dead then opening fire on troops when they get close, shooting an enemy combatant that is playing 'possum is a perfectly reasonable and logical thing to do. The Marine only did what he was trained for. If that terrorist were to raise his hands and throw off his blanket and indicate surrender like the one did here: http://tv.reuters.com/ifr_main.jsp?...rue&fr=111604_093931_17d5d2ax10040229314xwed2
when he realized that Marines weren't going to fall for the "just a dead Iraqi terrorist under this blanket--nope, nothing to worry about under this blanket" scam he'd still be alive as well. It's clear that the Marine thought this terrorist scumbag was a threat; now there's one less to worry about.
 

samcurry

Screwing with the code...
Staff member
You Can't Handle The Truth!
Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.


To a degree I want this type of military, i or anyone else doesnt need to know all the informatiopn that is spoonfeed to us today. If you could guarentee me that it would be shown and reported exactly in perfect context to the situation, then yes gato i would prefer it the otherway and send in the whole lot of reporters. but now we get tidbits and partly factual information that makes everyone of us jump to conclusions that are not necessarily true. We get the "opinion" of the reported instead of the facts from the reporter, and in many circumstances they are very differing.
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
If opinions were kept out, and we just got raw feed, I'd definitely disagree. Our system of embedding reporters actually protects us more than harms us. For example...how many reports of this type do you actually see? How many have you seen? How long has this been going on? If you break it down into those types of numbers, you can see that we are actually doing quite well, if that's all the press has to offer. :shrug:
 
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