America- the new Roman Empire?

[freako104]

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Professur]

My sig says it all.

 

[highwayman]

Not only misreading history but not knowing it at all. The roman empire imploded, America has been rotting for some time from the inside...

 

[Gato_Solo]

I can see it being attempted every day...some attempts by Reps, and some by Dems. This all started with the addition of 'police actions' and 'rescue missions' to the military.

 

[highwayman]

This all started with the addition of 'police actions' and 'rescue missions' to the military.

In other words, people that know nothing about an area of expertise trying to manage it out of existance....

 

[chcr]

In fact, the Roman Empire only imploded after it had been rotting away from the inside for some time, highway. I've been saying for years that we're doomed to a similar fate. Probably not in our lifetimes, but it will almost certainly happen. When the citizens are more concerned with their personal prerogatives than with the good of their nation, the end has already passed. Inertia and a lack of viable enemies will keep it going for a while, but eventually the US government will collapse under it's own weight.

 

[highwayman]

In fact, the Roman Empire only imploded after it had been rotting away from the inside for some time, highway. I've been saying for years that we're doomed to a similar fate. Probably not in our lifetimes, but it will almost certainly happen. When the citizens are more concerned with their personal prerogatives than with the good of their nation, the end has already passed. Inertia and a lack of viable enemies will keep it going for a while, but eventually the US government will collapse under it's own weight.

Agreed, the benchmark for the point that the rotting started, or when it had been noticable, had been the 60s. The implosion is not if but when...

 

[Professur]

In fact, the Roman Empire only imploded after it had been rotting away from the inside for some time, highway. I've been saying for years that we're doomed to a similar fate. Probably not in our lifetimes, but it will almost certainly happen. When the citizens are more concerned with their personal prerogatives than with the good of their nation, the end has already passed. Inertia and a lack of viable enemies will keep it going for a while, but eventually the US government will collapse under it's own weight.

Yeah, but we've got instantaneous (mis)information transfer now. It won't take us a quarter the time it took them.

 

[MrBishop]

It'll collapse financially before it does socially. Being the only military and commercial superpower takes more money than the current economy can sustain, and with China and India stealing the commercial production spotlight... an increase in production in the USA isn't going to happen fast enough.

Not fast enough to counter import vs export numbers as they are now, and certainly not fast enough to maintain non-military leverage.

 

[Gato_Solo]

It'll collapse financially before it does socially. Being the only military and commercial superpower takes more money than the current economy can sustain, and with China and India stealing the commercial production spotlight... an increase in production in the USA isn't going to happen fast enough.

Not fast enough to counter import vs export numbers as they are now, and certainly not fast enough to maintain non-military leverage.

You're right. We'll just have to invade Canada for your oil sands, and completely exterminate the Quebecois...

 

[chcr]

Agreed, the benchmark for the point that the rotting started, or when it had been noticable, had been the 60s. The implosion is not if but when...

Actually, I'm of the opinion that it's possible to reverse it, but not enough people care. We disagree about the sixties too. The political undercurrent of the counterculture was rebellion over what the country was becoming, is still becoming. Vietnam was a symptom (see Gato's post) of what was happening. The problem with the sixties is that too many people saw stopping the war as the ultimate goal. Then the seventies came along and the pendulum swung back the other way. IMO, the decline started after WWII when our government finally realized that we were the paramount power in the world. That's when we started becoming the new Rome (as Britain was in the 18th and 19th centuries). As I've often said, the problem with history is that no one ever learns from it.

 

[highwayman]

Not fast enough to counter import vs export numbers as they are now, and certainly not fast enough to maintain non-military leverage.

That trend has been going on since before the mid 80s and will continue as long as people want the goods cheaper and more of it. What it all boils down to is that the American companies are looking after the bottom line and staying in busines by being compitive. At this point there is no easy answer or fix to stop or reverse the "outsorcing" of America and reversing to problems on the horizon...

 

[Gato_Solo]

Actually, I'm of the opinion that it's possible to reverse it, but not enough people care. We disagree about the sixties too. The political undercurrent of the counterculture was rebellion over what the country was becoming, is still becoming. Vietnam was a symptom (see Gato's post) of what was happening. The problem with the sixties is that too many people saw stopping the war as the ultimate goal. Then the seventies came along and the pendulum swung back the other way. IMO, the decline started after WWII when our government finally realized that we were the paramount power in the world. That's when we started becoming the new Rome (as Britain was in the 18th and 19th centuries). As I've often said, the problem with history is that no one ever learns from it.

Nobody thinks it will happen to them is more to the point...I wonder who'll take our place on the 'top of the heap'?

BTW...another reason we're having such a big problem is that the world does not like a hegemony. Doesn't matter who's in charge.

 

[highwayman]

IMO, the decline started after WWII when our government finally realized that we were the paramount power in the world.

That is when the fuse was lit and the die was cast, my reference to the 60s was when it started to surface and the fact that 'Nam and the counterculture were hiding the true nature of what we are seeing now. IMO it was starting of the effect not the cause.

 

[Gato_Solo]

"Do not ask what your country can do for you" changed rather quickly to "What's in it for me". Too fast to be just a 60's counterculture effect. You must also add one more influence to the pot to make an effect that big. Has something to do with "The American Dream". I'll leave you folks to add your thoughts to this.

 

[Professur]

What you're trying to explain, Gato, is that millions of people stopped having to worry about eating tomorrow. Millions have forgotten what it takes to survive day to day. It's easy to think of rabbits as cute and fuzzy things when there's food at the grocery. But when the shelves are bare of produce .... Noone wants to see Bambi strapped to the roof of a car ..... until there's no corn. Everyone wants to save the wolves .... until they eat your cat. People there that money is what it takes to survive ..... and they're all in for a nasty shock. Reason one why I'm teaching my kids survival skills now. They'll know how to put a roof over their heads, and food in their bellies .... even it the PETAs and Antis don't like it.

 

[MrBishop]

That trend has been going on since before the mid 80s and will continue as long as people want the goods cheaper and more of it. What it all boils down to is that the American companies are looking after the bottom line and staying in busines by being compitive. At this point there is no easy answer or fix to stop or reverse the "outsorcing" of America and reversing to problems on the horizon...

If the trend of increased military power and decreased spending power continues...at what point do you think (or rather, what trigger) would the use of military power to secure economic security happen? Either strong-arming "You will concede to this trade agreement or else" or Literally a REAL war for oil...invasion (like Gato mentioned tongue-in-cheek).

 

[2minkey]

"Do not ask what your country can do for you" changed rather quickly to "What's in it for me". Too fast to be just a 60's counterculture effect. You must also add one more influence to the pot to make an effect that big. Has something to do with "The American Dream". I'll leave you folks to add your thoughts to this.

wow, third post in this thread that i agree with you. i'd go buy a lottery ticket if i had any idea of where to get one around here...

 

[highwayman]

If the trend of increased military power and decreased spending power continues...at what point do you think (or rather, what trigger) would the use of military power to secure economic security happen? Either strong-arming "You will concede to this trade agreement or else" or Literally a REAL war for oil...invasion (like Gato mentioned tongue-in-cheek).

The posibility is there for a forced agreement on crude sales, the pressure may come from another source. Traditionaly America has acted as a big brother protecting the weaker one. God forbid there would be an economic colapse, if the American economy implodes or no longer becomes viable the effect would be world wide, not a regional colapse.

Keep in mind that since WW2 America has gone from an agricultural based economy, to manufacturing, then a service based then to now a global economy.

If the military force is used to secure economic securety we would be in a face of with Asia, specificaly China. The point were major action would be needed to secure economic stability is when Americas trade deficit continues to increase and the GNP stagnates...

IMO

 

[Gato_Solo]

The posibility is there for a forced agreement on crude sales, the pressure may come from another source. Traditionaly America has acted as a big brother protecting the weaker one. God forbid there would be an economic colapse, if the American economy implodes or no longer becomes viable the effect would be world wide, not a regional colapse.

Keep in mind that since WW2 America has gone from an agricultural based economy, to manufacturing, then a service based then to now a global economy.

If the military force is used to secure economic securety we would be in a face of with Asia, specificaly China. The point were major action would be needed to secure economic stability is when Americas trade deficit continues to increase and the GNP stagnates...

IMO

Not as bad as all that. China needs the US as much as the US needs China. Any face-off with China will be over a third party like Taiwan or North Korea. Remember...Chinese manufacturing is driven by American consumerism. For all the posturing by both sides, that's the bottom line.