Another log for the fire

[Gonz]

Enough death and destruction in Israel could end it.

Absolutely. I want Israel to stomp these terrorist fucks into the ground like ants at a picnic but hey, somebody needs to end it, one way or the other & diplomacy has repeatedly proven it will not work.

 

[Professur]

Read it again, Gonz. He just said "kill all the jews".

 

[Gonz]

I know. I've stated that total & absolute victory, by either side, will end this. We all know where I stand on preferences but it will take someone not listening to the UN & its diplomats & pretending we don't have 24/7/media & using what firepower & strength they have to end the oppositions will to make war. Will it actually happen that we see unabated victory? time will tell

 

[spike]

Read it again, Gonz. He just said "kill all the jews".

Sure didn't, I'm of the opnion "violence begets more violence" and biased warmongering is foolish.

Kill a bunch of civilians trying to attack Hezbollah and more civilians will want to join Hezbollah and retaliate. Kill a bunch of Jews and the Jews will want to retaliate.

Neither is a good plan and the back forth is only going to be stopped by real diplomacy.

 

[2minkey]

by real diplomacy.

what is real diplomacy in the middle east?

my objection has entirely been from the standpoint of a western, humanist standpoint... which absolutely does not exist in the middle east. apparently, and unfortunately, wven within israel, our middle-eastern surrogate.

should we hold israel accountable to the standards of western societies that hold the loss of an innocent life - through war, murder, perhaps even abortion - to be a huge fucking deal.... ?

or should we adopt the standards of human life that exist in the middle east. or china. or russia. which are, as my syrian friend says...

"killing a bunch of people is simply the way power and order is achieved where i'm from."

take your pick.

i'd rather stick with our bullshit imposition of values where they don't belong.

ha ha ha. how's the weather in the bay area these days?

 

[paul_valaru]

what is real diplomacy in the middle east?

my objection has entirely been from the standpoint of a western, humanist standpoint... which absolutely does not exist in the middle east. apparently, and unfortunately, wven within israel, our middle-eastern surrogate.

should we hold israel accountable to the standards of western societies that hold the loss of an innocent life - through war, murder, perhaps even abortion - to be a huge fucking deal.... ?

or should we adopt the standards of human life that exist in the middle east. or china. or russia. which are, as my syrian friend says...

"killing a bunch of people is simply the way power and order is achieved where i'm from."

take your pick.

i'd rather stick with our bullshit imposition of values where they don't belong.

ha ha ha. how's the weather in the bay area these days?

If you hold Israel to the SAME standards as other contries in the area, then there is no problem, but israel is held to a higher standard for some reason.

 

[spike]

If you hold Israel to the SAME standards as other contries in the area, then there is no problem, but israel is held to a higher standard for some reason.

I agree. Quit making excuses for their violence, get them to sign the NPT, abide by Geneva Conventions, and give them no more aid than any other country in the area. No more special treatment.

 

[Gonz]

I agree. Quit making excuses for their violence, get them to sign the NPT, abide by Geneva Conventions, and give them no more aid than any other country in the area. No more special treatment.

When the non-North American Jews are decimated from the face of the earth, will you say OOPS & chalk it up to a bad administration? Naziism was prevalent in the ME. Still is.

 

[paul_valaru]

I agree. Quit making excuses for their violence, get them to sign the NPT, abide by Geneva Conventions, and give them no more aid than any other country in the area. No more special treatment.

Excuses, let's see, they are attacked, so they fight back, oops, so sorry.

And when surrounded on all sides they should sign the NPT? Why? it is volantary, is it not?

Geneva convenstion? how are they not following that?

 

[spike]

Excuses, let's see, they are attacked, so they fight back, oops, so sorry.

That's fine, when Israel attacks the other sides fight back. Just pretty stupid to keep that cycle going.

And when surrounded on all sides they should sign the NPT? Why? it is volantary, is it not?

Same standards were you're idea.

Geneva convenstion? how are they not following that?

The statement calls on Israel to "abide scrupulously" by its legal responsibilities as a signatory to the Fourth Geneva Convention. WCC/CCIA also notes that "Israel's repeated defiance of international law, its continuing occupation and the impunity it has so long enjoyed are the fundamental causes of the present violence and threaten peace and security of both peoples."


http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/news/press/01/43pu.html

 

[paul_valaru]

That's fine, when Israel attacks the other sides fight back. Just pretty stupid to keep that cycle going.

And when surrounded on all sides they should sign the NPT? Why? it is volantary, is it not?

Same standards were you're idea.

Geneva convenstion? how are they not following that?

The statement calls on Israel to "abide scrupulously" by its legal responsibilities as a signatory to the Fourth Geneva Convention. WCC/CCIA also notes that "Israel's repeated defiance of international law, its continuing occupation and the impunity it has so long enjoyed are the fundamental causes of the present violence and threaten peace and security of both peoples."


http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/news/press/01/43pu.html

world council of churchs

The World Council of Churches' Commission of the Churches on International Affairs ...

Accusations of Anti-Semitism
The council has been described by some as taking anti-Semitic positions in connection with its criticisms of Israeli policy. They believe the council has focused more on activities and publications criticizing Israel than on other human rights issues. The council members have been characterized by Israel's former Justice minister Amnon Rubinstein as anti-Semitic, saying "they just hate Israel." [16]

The World Council of Churches has rejected this accusation. In 2005, the General Secretary of the WCC, Samuel Kobia, stated that anti-Semitism is a "sin against God and man" and "absolutely irreconcilable with the profession and practice of the Christian faith," quoting from the first assembly of the WCC in Amsterdam in 1948

nuff said

 

[spike]

Oh sure, if you don't like the facts just play the victim card and accuse them of anti semitism, Classy.

 

[spike]

Just call these anti semites while your at it...

(Received from a UN Information Officer.)
CAIRO, 14 June -- Expert panellists at the United Nations International Meeting on the Convening of the Conference on Measures to Enforce the Fourth Geneva Convention in the Occupied Territories today stressed the seriousness of continued Israeli settlements in the occupied territories. This came in the context of a discussion on the theme, "Violations by Israel, the occupying Power, of the provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention in the occupied Palestinian territory, including Jerusalem".
http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/archives/L/1999/A/un990917.html

VIII. VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN AND HUMAN RIGHTS LAW
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/lebanon/Isrlb997-07.htm

London, 3 August (AKI) - Rights group Amnesty International on Thursday slammed the Israeli army (IDF)'s investigation of its deadly air-missile attack last Sunday on the southern Lebanese town of Qana - which killed 60 civilians including 37 children - as "a whitewash." On the same day, another top rights group, the New-York based Human Rights Watch, released a report on Israel's ongoing 23-day war in Lebanon that concluded that in some cases, the aerial bombardments constituted war crimes.
http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Politics&loid=8.0.327455106&par=0

 

[paul_valaru]

Just call these anti semites while your at it...

(Received from a UN Information Officer.)
CAIRO, 14 June -- Expert panellists at the United Nations International Meeting on the Convening of the Conference on Measures to Enforce the Fourth Geneva Convention in the Occupied Territories today stressed the seriousness of continued Israeli settlements in the occupied territories. This came in the context of a discussion on the theme, "Violations by Israel, the occupying Power, of the provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention in the occupied Palestinian territory, including Jerusalem".
http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/archives/L/1999/A/un990917.html

VIII. VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN AND HUMAN RIGHTS LAW
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/lebanon/Isrlb997-07.htm

London, 3 August (AKI) - Rights group Amnesty International on Thursday slammed the Israeli army (IDF)'s investigation of its deadly air-missile attack last Sunday on the southern Lebanese town of Qana - which killed 60 civilians including 37 children - as "a whitewash." On the same day, another top rights group, the New-York based Human Rights Watch, released a report on Israel's ongoing 23-day war in Lebanon that concluded that in some cases, the aerial bombardments constituted war crimes.
http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Politics&loid=8.0.327455106&par=0

OK

anti-semites



people who read the same biased pap as you, more likely, except teh UN guy

yep the UN with the anti-israel leanings.

I will repeat myself from another thread

when an Jew gets on to a bus with a bomb strapped around his waist, and blows up 15 muslim children, and his family is rewarded by the israeli goverment, and he is priased by friends and neibours, and considered a hero, then, and only then will you be right. Until then, go enjoy the literature brought to you by the people who wite such wonderful books as the protocals of zion.

 

[spike]

Yep anyone who omplains about Israeli crimes is just an anti-semite. Cause Israel can do no wrong.

I'll repeat myself to.

What if he gets in a plane and blows up a lot more than 15 muslim children and is rewarded by the Israeli government. Oh wait, that happens all the time.

 

[paul_valaru]

Yep anyone who omplains about Israeli crimes is just an anti-semite. Cause Israel can do no wrong.

I'll repeat myself to.

What if he gets in a plane and blows up a lot more than 15 muslim children and is rewarded by the Israeli government. Oh wait, that happens all the time.

if he targets 15 muslim children, then he is arrested, not rewarded.

If his target is a rocket postion, a terrorist hideout or whatever, and they are using human sheilds, then THEY, the terrorists, killed those children.

It's plain and simple, Israel will pursue, and destory their targets, the use of hostages or human sheilds will no longer be tolerated.

 

[paul_valaru]

Yep anyone who omplains about Israeli crimes is just an anti-semite.

No, just listening to crap written by anti-semites, without doing any real research of their own.

The press says it you beleive it.

You see Childrens deaths, and you get all teary eyed, and don't bother to look at why those children died.

Nor can you see the children that died before them, and those before them.

You see everything through the looking glass of the western cultured mind, NOBODY in that region thinks that way.

And Israel can do PLENTY wrong, you just haven't found it yet cause you are looking in the wrong places.

 

[spike]

if he targets 15 muslim children, then he is arrested, not rewarded.

Rights group Amnesty International on Thursday slammed the Israeli army (IDF)'s investigation of its deadly air-missile attack last Sunday on the southern Lebanese town of Qana - which killed 60 civilians including 37 children - as "a whitewash." On the same day, another top rights group, the New-York based Human Rights Watch, released a report on Israel's ongoing 23-day war in Lebanon that concluded that in some cases, the aerial bombardments constituted war crimes.

So they were arrested?

 

[paul_valaru]

well let's get the facts straight first

Israel/Lebanon: Qana Death Toll at 28
International Inquiry Needed into Israeli Air Strike
(Beirut, August 2, 2006) – A preliminary Human Rights Watch investigation into the July 30 Israeli air strike in Qana found that 28 people are confirmed dead thus far, among them 16 children, Human Rights Watch said today.


The deaths in Qana were the predictable result of Israel’s indiscriminate bombing campaign in Lebanon. Only an impartial international investigation can find out what really took place.

Sarah Leah Whitson, director of the Middle East and North Africa division at Human Rights Watch




“The deaths in Qana were the predictable result of Israel’s indiscriminate bombing campaign in Lebanon,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, director of the Middle East and North Africa division at Human Rights Watch. “Only an impartial international investigation can find out what really took place.”

The initial estimate of 54 persons killed was based on a register of 63 persons who had sought shelter in the basement of the building that was struck, and rescue teams having located nine survivors. It now appears that at least 22 people escaped the basement, and 28 are confirmed dead, according to records from the Lebanese Red Cross and the government hospital in Tyre.

link

IDF: We assumed building in Qana to be empty


IDF investigation reveals Qana residents warned repeatedly to leave area. IDF sources: Had we known building was occupied by civilians, we would not have attacked it Efrat Weiss




The Israel Defense Forces on Wednesday evening published its formal investigation regarding the aerial strike on Qana , in which 27 Lebanese civilians were killed. IDF sources state that their work assumption was that the building was emptied of civilians and was being used as a cover for terrorists.


"Had we known the building was occupied by civilians, we would not have attacked it," they said.




On Sunday, a building in Qana was bombed by the IDF and later collapsed. According to Lebanese claims, the building was being used as a shelter for south Lebanon refugees. The area incurred vast damages and rescue operations lasted for hours.



Pursuant to this, Defense Minister Amir Peretz instructed the IDF to conduct an immediate investigation of circumstances surrounding the incident. In the mean time, the IDF announced a 48 hour cessation of aerial attacks .



Findings confirm initial statements




The investigation reveals that, prior to the attack on the building housing the civilians, several other structures were attacked in the same area, because they served as terrorist infrastructure. Findings, which were presented to the Chief of General Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz authenticated previous IDF statements regarding the attack: the building was struck at 00:25 Sunday by two bombs launched by the IAF. One of the bombs exploded and the other was apparently a dud.



IDF sources reported that the attack on the building was undertaken in accordance to the General Staff policy regarding buildings in those villages that serve as a source of rocket fire and whose residents have been warned to leave. "The policy was formed based on observation and study of terrorist behavior and the understanding that terrorists use civilian structures to store weapons and launch missiles," said a statement from the IDF spokesperson's office.



An IDF examination revealed that since the onset of the fighting, some 150 rockets had been launched from Qana and the surrounding areas. The investigation confirmed that residents of the village had received several warnings to evacuate the area, via both pamphlets and radio.




With the conclusion of the investigation, Lt. Gen. Halutz expressed, once again, his sorrow that civilians had been killed, among them children. He stated that "the war on terror makes cynical use of civilians as human shields and operates deliberately out of civilian infrastructures and communities, making it many times harder to conduct regular military operations and creating an operational and moral challenge."



The general emphasized that "Hizbullah places Lebanese civilians as a barrier between us and them, while the IDF places itself as a barrier between Israeli civilians and the terror of Hizbullah. This is the chief difference between us and Hizbullah."



Halutz instructed subordinates to examine and update IDF policy of opening fire on targets suspected of links to terror, so that this policy corresponds to the changing needs, criteria, and information in the field of operations.

link

and finally.....

Evidence Mounts that Kana "Massacre" Was a Fake
16:05 Aug 03, '06 / 9 Av 5766
by Hillel Fendel


The world awoke Sunday to the news that an Israeli airstrike killed 57 Lebanese civilians, leading Israel to stop airstrikes for 2 days - but evidence indicates the "massacre" may have been a fraud.


The supposed massacre caused a major turnabout in world diplomacy. US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice suddenly canceled her plans to fly to Beirut, saying "my work towards a ceasefire is really here [in Jerusalem] today." The implication was clearly that the onus was now upon Israel. French President Jacques Chirac condemned Israel's "unjustified action which demonstrates more than ever the need for an immediate ceasefire," Jordan's King Abdullah called it an "ugly crime," and other world leaders echoed these sentiments.

Though Israel emphasized that Hizbullah was to blame for waging its rocket war against Israel from within a civilian population, Foreign Ministry officials repeated their "deep regret at the loss of innocent life in the campaign against Hizbullah," and were forced to promise a "thorough and comprehensive examination."

However, the incident may have been all one big fraud, staged by Arab elements for the world media in order to lead precisely to the situation described above.

The central piece of evidence leading to this conclusion is the fact, mentioned by IDF officials from the very beginning, that the building collapsed a full seven hours after the Israel Air Force bombing. Why, then, would the residents inside not have been evacuated in the meantime? As Brig.-Gen. Amir Eshel of the Israeli Air Force told reporters Sunday night, “It is difficult for me to believe that they waited eight hours to evacuate it.” Without additional evidence, Eshel merely left open the possibility that Hizbullah terrorists, or explosives they left behind, caused the explosion.

"Indeed," writes Robert Spencer for FrontPageMagazine, "it strains credulity that not only did these Lebanese civilians remain in a house that had been bombed for eight hours, but peacefully went to sleep in it after the bombing – since the victims were all apparently sleeping, despite continuing Israeli air bombardment in the area, when the building collapsed."

Gen. Eshel also said that the building was used by Hizbullah to store explosives. This was supported by a letter by Dr. Mounir Herzallah, a southern Lebanese Shiite, who wrote that Hizbullah terrorists came to his town, dug a munitions depot and then built a school and a residence directly over it.

In addition, as Reuven Koret writes for IsraelInsider, the bombing of the area occurred in three waves. The first bombs, according to CNN correspondent Brent Sadler, did not hit the building in question, but rather landed "20 or 30 meters" away. The second strike hit targets further away, and the third strike, around 7:30 in the morning, landed over 400 meters away. The first reports of a collapsed building arrived a half-hour later.

Another CNN correspondent, Ben Wedeman, noted that there was a larger crater next to the building. He observed that the roof of the building was intact and that the building appeared not to have collapsed as a result of the Israeli strike.

Thus, the building was used to store explosives, was apparently not destroyed by the bombing, and sheltered dozens of women and children throughout a night of bombing. The identity of the victims was also not clear, except that they were not the original occupants of the building; a National Public Radio correspondent reported that they had left. "The victims were non-residents who chose to shelter in the building that night," Koret writes, and who were "'too poor' to leave the town, one resident told CNN's Wedeman. Who were these people?"

Hear Koret speak about the Hizbullah manipulation on IsraelNationalRadio.com.

As an aside, the hospital in Tyre, Lebanon, and Human Rights Watch both reported today that 28 people were killed in the Kafr Kana bombing, and not twice that number, as originally reported.

Other facts brought by Koret and Spencer:

* Sometime after dawn a call went out to journalists and rescue workers to come to the scene. Though Hizbullah has been claiming that civilians could not freely flee the scene due to Israeli destruction of bridges and roads, the journalists and rescue teams from nearby Tyre had no problem getting there.

* Lebanese rescue teams did not start evacuating the building until after the camera crews came. The absence of a real rescue effort was explained by saying that equipment was lacking. There were no scenes of live or injured people being extracted.

* There was little blood, CNN's Wedeman noted, concluding that the victims appeared to have died while they were sleeping - despite the thunderous Israeli air attacks. Rescue workers equipped with cameras were removing the bodies from one opening in the collapsed structure, and journalists were not allowed near it.

* Rescue workers carrying the victims on stretchers occasionally flipped up the blankets so that cameras could show the faces and bodies of the dead. But, Koret noted, the ashen-gray faces of the victims gave cause to think that the bodies looked like they had been dead for days.

* Photos of the rescue operation transmitted all over the world are "extremely suspicious," Spencer writes, citing work by EU Referendum showing numerous anomalies in the photos. "Most notably," he writes, "the dating of the various photos suggests that the same bodies were paraded before reporters on different occasions, each time as if they had just been pulled from the rubble. [In addition], some workers are wearing different gear in different photos, yet clearly carrying the same corpse."

* The Christian Lebanese (French-language) website LIBANOSCOPIE has charged that Hizbullah staged the entire incident in order to stimulate calls for a ceasefire, thereby staving off its destruction by Israel and Lebanese plans to rid themselves of this terrorist plague.

Spencer concludes, "Americans and Westerners are not used to dealing with carefully orchestrated and large-scale deception of this kind. It is time that it be recognized as a weapon of warfare, and an extremely potent one at that."

link

while I don't necessarily beleive the conspiracy theory, I cannot dismiss it out of hand, as similair things have been proven to happen in the past.

 

[spike]

Hey, you take issue with me posting from the media, UN, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, etc articles. Call them all anti-semites. And then the response you have is from blatantly pro-israel/Jewish sites.

Seems your sources are a bit more biased than mine. You can agree with that right?