At the center of it all

[freako104]

I think it is about the idea of it being part of them naturally(it is biological) or enviroment

 

[chcr]

how is murdering relevent to homosexuality again?

"Cause they're both baaad! Baaad murderers!!!! Baaad homosexuals!!!

It's related to the way allowing homosexual marriages will lead to people wanting to marry their dogs and shit.

 

[Gonz]

how is murdering relevent to homosexuality again?

Show me how socially taboo is relevent.

 

[Thulsa Doom]

Show me how socially taboo is relevent.

well see it follows that you are less likely to CHOOSE to be a way that is considered taboo because of the repercusions of it in our society then you are to have no choice about it.

 

[Gonz]

Yea...and

If homosexuality is taboo & murder is taboo, doesn't it stand that neither would happen?

Guess what, they both do. So, as I suggested, the scientific data on homosexuals must be right next to the data on murderers.

 

[Thulsa Doom]

how does homosexuality "happen"? Murder is an overt act. Homosexuality is a state of being. You can CHOOSE to make an overt act. You cant CHOOSE a state of being. Im not arguing with you that there may be background reasons for the propensity to kill I just dont see the relevance to homosexuality at all. People dont become gay because they grew up in a bad neighborhood. they just ARE gay.

 

[Gonz]

There is no corelation between homosexualtiy & murder.

There is also no scientific study that definitively says homosexuality is a natural state.

Nature vs nurture is an age old problem. I believe it to be nature. I don't know Neither do the experts.

So, when you ask for data that doesn't exist, I grab the first crime that fits the noun/verb order & feed you the same crap you fed Gato. Assuming people don't choose to be homosexual BECAUSE of the social taboo's placed on it, those same taboo's ought to stop criminals. They don't. Becasuse some people are just born to be different.

 

[Gato_Solo]

oh my goodness what a credibility drop... Please provide for me all the scientific data showing that homosexuals choose to be homosexuals despite the massive taboo against it in our society? And then when you are done with that you can explain to me why I CANT choose to be a homosexual myself. According to your logic I should be able to magically transform myself into one and immidiatly start finding other men attractive and being repulsed by women. But no matter how hard I try it doesnt work. Why is that? And how do you explain that problem with your theory?

Now as far as you insistance that marriage is ONLY for procreation. Where is that written? What about all the millions of people who get married and never have kids. Should their marriages be declared null and void after a period of time in which no offspring is made? And should we write a constitutional ammendment to ban the elderly from marrying?

I'll do that when you provide all the scientific data showing that homosexuality is not a choice. Call it what you will, but bashing my opinion in favor of yours does nothing to further your 'facts'. You say that it's not a choice, I say to you, "Prove it".

As for your inane reference for my statement on procreation, I never said that marriage is only for procreation. I said the main reason. Reading, and not reading into, is key here.

 

[Leslie]

k, you guys who think it's a "choice" why not try just choosing to be gay for 5 minutes next time you're around a gay man...see how far you get with it.

 

[Gato_Solo]

k, you guys who think it's a "choice" why not try just choosing to be gay for 5 minutes next time you're around a gay man...see how far you get with it.

Forgive me for saying this, Leslie, but didn't you, at one point, choose a bisexual experience? If you can choose, then I can choose. I, however, choose not to. That, in itself, is a choice. You'd be better off asking us to murder someone.

 

[Gonz]

I choose not to like guys because we don't have interesting titties. Well, that & teh whole penis thing.

 

[Leslie]

oh come on, admit it...you guys couldn't choose to be gay even if you were paid to do it...it just isn't in you. now why on earth do you think others are just doing that willy nilly?

and yes, I did choose it...we'll just say once..., cause boobies are cool...but I certainly don't call myself one or the other, I just am, and let others live, and expect the same from everyone else.

 

[MrBishop]

If homosexuality is a choice...then men and women who claim to be homosexual, and behave as such, when faced with being thrown out of their homes by their parents, with descrimination at work or in church, when ostracized by their friends and associates, when faced with violence in the streets etc...should be able to just up and say "Well...that sucked." snap their fingers and then say "Well...I'm straight again" - and go and find someone of the opposite gender and rejoin the majority... free to walk in the sun again without fear of reprisals.

I'm not seeing that happening.

What I am seeing happen is one of four things.
a) People claiming to be gay, acting as such and not being able to 'turn away from the dark side' under any circumstances.
b) People experimenting sexually with homosexuality or bisexuality and finding it wanting, and going back to heterosexuality
c) People who internally claim to be gay, and acting straight (marrying, having kids etc) and eventually discovering for themselves that they aren't happy acting straight and turning to their natural instincts and becoming gay.
d) People who claim to be heterosexual, acting as such and not being able to become gay under any circumstances.

Make what you want of it...nature, choice or nurture....it should still not play into the issue of marriage, law, employment etc...

IMHO - Despite your sexual-orientation, your gender, your race, your salary, your religious convictions etc...you should have the same legal rights as the person next to you.

The quote is "Government of the people, for the people, by the people" and not "...of the people, for some of the people, by the people"

Either the goverment represents all, or it represents none.

 

[Gato_Solo]

oh come on, admit it...you guys couldn't choose to be gay even if you were paid to do it...it just isn't in you. now why on earth do you think others are just doing that willy nilly?

and yes, I did choose it...we'll just say once..., cause boobies are cool...but I certainly don't call myself one or the other, I just am, and let others live, and expect the same from everyone else.

Because we enjoy our lifestyle more. If someone else enjoys an 'alternative' lifestyle more than a 'traditional' lifestyle, don't you think they would choose that? Perhaps I'm just stupid for believing that gay men are intelligent and responsible enough to choose a lifestyle they prefer, even if it conflicts with the majority view. Or, perhaps, you don't give them enough credit for the life they chose. Either way, their lifestyle is a choice.

Just for the record...Gay people have existed since time began, and will exist long after I'm dead and buried. I have no illusions on that matter. The only point I'm trying to make is that it is a choice. Remember ? He once stated that he indulged in women (at least one). Does that mean he chose to be straight? Does that mean that he's living a lie? Does that mean anything is wrong with him? I say no to all three questions.

 

[freako104]

they can choose to be or not be but there is also something in them that makes it biological no? I think there has been info that in some cases it is biological. but I have a friend named Rose. He is homosexual but from his and my conversations at school(this was back home BTW) it was his enviroment. he spent many years thinking he was female since he never had that explanation. now with that in mind who here thinks it is choice? biological? or otherwise? I think it is between enviroment adn otherwise

 

[Gato_Solo]

they can choose to be or not be but there is also something in them that makes it biological no? I think there has been info that in some cases it is biological. but I have a friend named Rose. He is homosexual but from his and my conversations at school(this was back home BTW) it was his enviroment. he spent many years thinking he was female since he never had that explanation. now with that in mind who here thinks it is choice? biological? or otherwise? I think it is between enviroment adn otherwise

Still a choice. He responded to his environment in a way he thought was natural. If his environment was different, would he have chosen differently? Nobody can say for sure. Even the 'examples' brought forth by Bish are flawed, because he limits his viewpoint. He even shows his prejudice by calling homosexuality "The Dark Side". I say that those who choose an 'alternative' lifestyle still made a choice. Nobody with an ounce of sanity holds a gun to someones head and says "You will be gay or I'll kill you", and nobody with an ounce of respect for their fellow human being threatens a homosexual with physical harm if they don't become straight. IMO, everything he's mentioned is histrionics and disguised bigotry...

 

[Gonz]

I love when these arguments come down to idioms.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that homosexuals just are. You must also accept the fact that they chose to take action on their feelings. Nobody is forcing them to commit heterosexual acts yet many many do.

Given a high enough price tag, I may be willing to whore myself to a homosexual. I can certainly see why men commit homosexual acts. The pure hedonism that surrounds that community, in general. Pleasure for the sake of plesure. I prefer females but it doesn't mean I'm not capable. I am naturally inclined towards & choose my partners & accept the limitations of that choice.

 

[Leslie]

its not a choice...

down to basics, you either get a boner/wet panties over one sex or another, or on the flipside are repulsed by one sex or another... wtf is choice in that?

 

[freako104]

while this will more than liekly crush my arguemnts in here:


you can choose to act on it. getting the erection/wet isnt a choice. acting on it is. Gato good point I did not take if he reacted differently into consideration. as far as "alternative lifestyle"

S/m is considered alternative
Celibsy is considered alternative(esp in this world)
Heterosexual/bi/gay are all alternatives to some degree. but hetero is the most prevalent.



EDIT: Gato i dont know if you noticed but Bish did put the "dark side" in quotes as I just did.

 

[Camelyn]

My opinion:

Hetero/homo/bi sexuality is a biological phenomenon. You cannot choose what you are physically attracted to.

However you *can* choose the gender with whom you have sexual relations, and under what circumstances. A heterosexual female may find herself turned on at the though of a three-some. She is not attracted to women, but is sexually stimulated by the thought of group sex. A heterosexual male may choose to have a homosexual experience, not because he is inherently attracted to men, but because he is turned on by the thought of sex outside the norms of his experience. A homosexual man may choose to marry and raise a family, because he cannot face the social stigma and repercussions homosexuality brings. None of these examples changes the inherent nature of each person’s physical attraction to one sex or the other. The choice lies in how it is acted upon.