Ba'athist Fascism...

[PT]

Ever notice how some people just like to argue just to argue? No matter the topic some people will always, even if there beliefs are the same as yours, take the opposite side of the argument. Just for the sake of arguing?

Bah, I'd never do that.

 

[Ardsgaine]

But you can't do that since you've already proclaimed fascist as considering the whole as opposed to the individual and therefore leftist....

So your position is that if a person is greedy, he is, by definition, a capitalist.....?

Why am I having to build your definition of capitalism from hints? Wouldn't it be easier if you just stated it?

 

[Squiggy]

I'm using your definitions.

 

[Ardsgaine]

I'm using your definitions.

Here we go again. I'm going to stop this before it even gets started. You're not putting enough effort into the discussion to justify continuing it.

 

[Squiggy]

You just don't like where its going.

 

[Ardsgaine]

You just don't like where its going.

You're absolutely right, because it's not going anywhere. I'm writing two or three paragraphs of arguments explaining my position, while you keep coming back with your one- or two-line responses, basically repeating what you've already said. You're not interested in gaining a better understanding of my position, or even in giving me a better understanding of your own. You're not interested in having a debate, much less a discussion. What you're doing is anyone's guess, but you can do it without me.

 

[Squiggy]

All I've done is point out flaws in you theory verses reality. If anything, its caused you to wonder about your previous postings. And IMHO, you should.

I answer these things on the fly. I don't go offline and write a half hour or 45 minute dissertation to paste as a reply. You stated that you are capitalist and no one stands to the right of you. Fascists , nazis, baathists, communists, etc are all leftists because they consider the whole as opposed to the self. I point out that the leaders behind the real life regimes you mention, actually live contrary to the political system that they rose to power under. By your own definition, if they think of self above all else, they are over there with you....They are capitalists.

 

[ol' man]

All I've done is point out flaws in you theory verses reality. If anything, its caused you to wonder about your previous postings. And IMHO, you should.

I answer these things on the fly. I don't go offline and write a half hour or 45 minute dissertation to paste as a reply. You stated that you are capitalist and no one stands to the right of you. Fascists , nazis, baathists, communists, etc are all leftists because they consider the whole as opposed to the self. I point out that the leaders behind the real life regimes you mention, actually live contrary to the political system that they rose to power under. By your own definition, if they think of self above all else, they are over there with you....They are capitalists.

IDIOT

 

[Ardsgaine]

If anything, its caused you to wonder about your previous postings.

Not even close.

I answer these things on the fly. I don't go offline and write a half hour or 45 minute dissertation to paste as a reply.

You should try it.

You stated that you are capitalist and no one stands to the right of you. Fascists , nazis, baathists, communists, etc are all leftists because they consider the whole as opposed to the self. I point out that the leaders behind the real life regimes you mention, actually live contrary to the political system that they rose to power under. By your own definition, if they think of self above all else, they are over there with you....They are capitalists.

This is all I was asking for, just a little more explanation to make your point clear, so I don't have to guess at what you mean.

Fascists , nazis, baathists, communists, etc are all leftists because they consider the whole as opposed to the self.

They are leftists because they believe that individual rights must be sacrificed for society.

I point out that the leaders behind the real life regimes you mention, actually live contrary to the political system that they rose to power under. By your own definition, if they think of self above all else, they are over there with you....They are capitalists.

No, by my definition, if they believe that individual rights must be sacrificed for the state, they are not capitalists, they are somewhere to the left-- how far depends on just how far they take it.

Does that clear up what my position is?

Squiggy, it's easy to stand off and snipe at someone else's beliefs. Putting forward a positive statement of your own beliefs and defending them is harder. It takes a lot of self-confidence to let yourself be kicked around like that. I don't mind being kicked, but I like to get something back in return. I like for people to try to meet me halfway in the amount of effort they put into it.

 

[Squiggy]

Ards, you are confusing the hell out of me. You accuse me of rehashing my thoughts and not not responding. But if I rehash YOUR thoughts, that IS responding?

And those tyrants don't in any way, shape, or form "believe that individual rights must be sacrificed for society". They believe they should be scrificed for THEM. Thats as "self" as anyone can be. So where does that fit left of you?

 

[outside looking in]

In a totalitarian regime, "you" are the "state."

 

[PT]

IDIOT

Well, shithead, you got anything better to say?

 

[outside looking in]

 

[PT]

Ever notice how some people just like to argue just to argue? No matter the topic some people will always, even if there beliefs are the same as yours, take the opposite side of the argument. Just for the sake of arguing?

I quoted this once already but I feel the need to expound on it some more. Have you ever heard of discussion? It's something adults do occasionally. We don't always have to argue or call each other names to get our points across, sometimes we do, but usually only when we know we have lost our argument or are in danger of losing it. You see, as you get older you will realize that you don't always know everything. You may just open your mind to new possiblities. Then again, you may not.

A child becomes an adult when he realizes that he has a right not only to be right but also to be wrong.
-Thomas Szasz

 

[chcr]

A child becomes an adult when he realizes that he has a right not only to be right but also to be wrong.

Wrong? Wrong? Wait a minute, I have a dictionary here somewhere.

 

[Ardsgaine]

Ards, you are confusing the hell out of me. You accuse me of rehashing my thoughts and not not responding. But if I rehash YOUR thoughts, that IS responding?

You didn't rehash my thoughts, you explained your take on what I was saying. It's a lot more helpful than making cryptic statements that leave me wondering, "now what the heck does he mean by that?"

And those tyrants don't in any way, shape, or form "believe that individual rights must be sacrificed for society". They believe they should be scrificed for THEM. Thats as "self" as anyone can be. So where does that fit left of you?

Pretty far, actually. Let me say it one more time: I don't believe that individual rights should be sacrificed for anyone. If you want to say that people like Stalin, Mao, Hitler, etc, are hypocrites, that's one thing. Maybe they are, or maybe it's built into the theory that some people will end up on top collecting the sacrifices of everyone else. They are most definitely not capitalists, though.

I think your deeper point is that these people are selfish, and the virtue of acting on one's self-interest is the moral underpinning of capitalism. The short answer to that is that being a mass-murdering slave master isn't in anyone's self-interest.

 

[Ardsgaine]

Have you ever heard of discussion?

You're really wasting your time with that one, PT.

 

[Squiggy]

Pretty far, actually. Let me say it one more time: I don't believe that individual rights should be sacrificed for anyone. If you want to say that people like Stalin, Mao, Hitler, etc, are hypocrites, that's one thing. Maybe they are, or maybe it's built into the theory that some people will end up on top collecting the sacrifices of everyone else. They are most definitely not capitalists, though.

I think your deeper point is that these people are selfish, and the virtue of acting on one's self-interest is the moral underpinning of capitalism. The short answer to that is that being a mass-murdering slave master isn't in anyone's self-interest.

OK...I was hoping to bring you a little bit farther off of the 'theories' but thats a start. At least you've seperated them from the tools they used to acquire power. Now, can I ask where you are placing these "mass-murdering slave masters" in the political sheme of things?

 

[PT]

You're really wasting your time with that one, PT.

I know, I just, just, I just wanted to try, you know?

The short answer to that is that being a mass-murdering slave master isn't in anyone's self-interest.

I disagree with that. It was definitely in the self interest of plantation owners to be slave owners. They could not have produced the raw materials that this country needed without the slave labor market. Do you realize how far behind we would be without slavery? Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning it by any means, I think it was atrocious, but look at the facts.

As for the murderous, I guess you have to look at that in a certain way too. It was in Hitlers self-interest to elimate the Jews. He felt they were a threat to the way of life he had invisioned so he attempted to have them eliminated. Is that not self interest?

 

[Ardsgaine]

I disagree with that. It was definitely in the self interest of plantation owners to be slave owners.

Reasons why slavery isn't practical:

1) To keep people enslaved one must keep them ignorant. Ignorant people are less productive than intelligent people.

2) Slaves do not benefit from their productivity, so they are motivated to do as little work as they can get away with.

3) The ruling caste must always live in fear a slave uprising.

4) Slaves can only be kept down by the constant threat of force, creating a society based on brutality that creeps into every aspect of life.

They could not have produced the raw materials that this country needed without the slave labor market.

The North produced massive amounts of raw materials without slave labor. It could have been done in the agricultural south also. They just tried to take a short cut and it bit them on the ass.

Do you realize how far behind we would be without slavery?

It's taken the south years to recover from the lingering effects of slavery. Do you realize how far ahead we would be without it?

It was in Hitlers self-interest to elimate the Jews. He felt they were a threat to the way of life he had invisioned so he attempted to have them eliminated. Is that not self interest?

The Jews made up a large portion of the German middle class, their scientists, businessmen and intellectuals. Eliminating them impoverished German society by removing a large portion of their most productive, intelligent members.

In doing this, Hitler and the Germans who willingly cooperated with it were not acting in their best interests, they were acting on envy and an outwardly directed self-hatred, just like the Jew-hating Muslims of the middle east.

It's important to distinguish between what a person perceives to be in his self-interest, and what actually is in his self-interest. A person motivated by self-pity and depression may decide he would be better off dead and take his own life. The fact that he thinks he's acting in his self-interest doesn't mean that he really is. People who do self-destructive things because they are attempting to fill some void in their soul, or escape from anxiety, or for some other dysfunctional psychological reason cannot be understood as acting selfishly.