Diversity remains a one way street

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Professur

Well-Known Member
Winky said:
Oh My God
and just HOW through a scienetific method would you
propose to explore the existance of God???

Now THAT would be a great thing Proof positive of one
diety! Man I'd be in church every morning (or praying to Mecca) !!!!


You said
Man as of yet does NOT have the answer to these questions
but have faith Brotha science WILL one day provide them.


Surely you're not going back on that.


as for seeing past Dogma Yeah keep the Dogma out of science and we'll all be better off.
How about putting some science into the Dogma?


As for:
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Answer Les's question

nope you can not and no 2,000 year old fable can either

Really? See above.
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No see S&P's beautiful prose for the definitive answer
on that one Bub!


'Tis beautifully written indeed, isn't it?


It's a real shame, Winky, but I'm gonna have to cut off our conversation, because you haven't managed a single answer more intelligent than "Sez you" yet. You have not provided anything other than "religion is bad, M'kay?", and frankly, the big people would like to have an intelligent conversation, so go away. M'Kay?
 

Winky

Well-Known Member
Sounds like a plan.
Arguing with a person 'of faith' is like

well you know "the rest of the story"

I will call this a winnah for my side and leave it at that heh heh

By the way what is your PhD\Doctorate ‘in’ Professor?


Have a nice day
 

freako104

Well-Known Member
Professur said:
I think you might actually want to read some details of what I wrote, Wink. But I'll try one last time to talk down at your level.



Science doesn't have all the answers. They may have, one day. But right now, most of what's called science is a matter of Come up with a theory, and see how it fits. Then try and discover what doesn't.



I will admit that science does not have all the answers but I believe it has some answers. Moreso than religion offers.
 

Thulsa Doom

New Member
SouthernN'Proud said:
In my statement which you quoted, I stand by the notion that if evolution is the true answer to life's inception, then where did the first being come from.

This seems to be a sticking point for you. let me see if I can be of some assistance. First off remember that evolution is NOT supported as the reason for the GENISIS of life (if I may use that term here) but instead as the MECHANISM by which life ADAPTS to its environment. Nothing more. Christians often treat evolution as a kind of religion equal and opposite to their own. And in this way they see it as a direct threat. But its not. Scientists see it as what it is: simply a tool to explain what we witness in the data presented to us. Never think its anything other then that.

Secondly, I think we can still approach the basic kernel of your question but first Ill need some background: By “first being” are you referring to man? Or to the first verifiable form of life on earth (at least on earth)? And if the latter what would you consider such? Do you consider a virus life? Its simply a protein sheath with some RNA inside. Do you consider things like prions to be alive? These are the nasties that cause such things as mad cow disease and such. And yet they have no brain, no spine, no discernable structure, no molecular structure and not even any nucleic acid! (no Clinton jokes right wingers! :grumpy: ) They are about as lifeless as you can get. But they exist. And many people believe they are responsible for mad cow disease. But ALL THEY ARE are misshapen proteins. And if they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time they can cause shit to happen like making normal proteins suddenly fold funny which reeks havoc in our cells and this ends up causing symptoms that look an awful lot like… well life!

Billions of years ago you had molecules floating around the oceans. This is a given. They still exist today. So whats to stop some of these molecules from interacting with each other in such a way so that they become what we would call self replicating. Once self-replicating molecules had been formed by chance, something like Darwinian natural selection could have begun: variation would have come into the population because of random errors in copying. Variants that were pqrticularly good at replication would automatically have come to. Varieties that did not replicate, or that did so inaccurately, would have become relatively less numerous. A kind of molecular natural selection led to ever increasing efficiency among replicating molecules. And from here you can see where you would get more and more complex structures. Cells formed this way. And organisms of course formed from cells. So “life” is really a long term cooperation between simpler forms really.

In the end you find that there is really no clear and clean discernable boundary between “life” and “non-life”. And THAT is where it becomes possible to see how “life” can evolve from inanimate matter.

Some even posit that life is really kind of an illusion. And that there is no real difference between you or I and the ground we walk on. We are all composed of the same stuff (supernova dust but nevermind that for now…). Now in our case we just happen to be elements in a complex chemical reaction that, because of our brevity of duration we perceive as separate and unique. But really we are but a brief flame rising over one gigantic fire.

Anyway ill stop there.

In the notion of creation by an all powerful God, it is implied that this God created it.

but what did he create? Did he create all the parts from whole cloth or did he create the rules and the tools and the ingredients and let the rules do the rest?
 

SouthernN'Proud

Southern Discomfort
First off remember that evolution is NOT supported as the reason for the GENISIS of life (if I may use that term here) but instead as the MECHANISM by which life ADAPTS to its environment. Nothing more.

I have stated as much many times. And yes, I am curious how those who disbelieve creation explain the genesis of life.

Christians often treat evolution as a kind of religion equal and opposite to their own. And in this way they see it as a direct threat. But its not.

We finally agree. Evolution is NOT equal to Christianity in any way shape form or fashion.


Scientists see it as what it is: simply a tool to explain what we witness in the data presented to us. Never think its anything other then that.

Never have, never will.



By “first being” are you referring to man? Or to the first verifiable form of life on earth (at least on earth)? And if the latter what would you consider such? Do you consider a virus life? Its simply a protein sheath with some RNA inside. Do you consider things like prions to be alive? These are the nasties that cause such things as mad cow disease and such. And yet they have no brain, no spine, no discernable structure, no molecular structure and not even any nucleic acid! (no Clinton jokes right wingers! ) They are about as lifeless as you can get. But they exist. And many people believe they are responsible for mad cow disease. But ALL THEY ARE are misshapen proteins. And if they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time they can cause shit to happen like making normal proteins suddenly fold funny which reeks havoc in our cells and this ends up causing symptoms that look an awful lot like… well life!

I am well aware of the existence of microscopic life forms such as virii. I ask about mankind. Man. Homo sapiens. Not apes, not any of the crap "scientists" bent on disproving the Bible want to pass off as "precursors of man". I am referring to upright walking, biped, thinking, distinguishable homo sapien life. As we all know, the book of Genesis details the creation of animals (birds, fish, beasts of the fields) and then the creation of man. I wanna know what those who disbelieve this notion have to say about where we as a species came from, separate from all that bullshit about being an offshoot of apes. You (or anybody else) wanna consider yourself an evolved ape, be my guest. I ain't buying it, no sir not for a second.




Billions of years ago you had molecules floating around the oceans. This is a given

No it isn't. I do not believe the earth is billions of years old. The Bible does not support that theory, neither do I. Just because a "scientist" who has an agenda of his/her own to propogate and the incentive of federal funding to do so says it does not make it fact.

I'll even go you one better. This oughta really get the witch hunt off to a rip roaring start. I do not believe dinosaurs ever existed. Anyone can glue bones together. Most anyone can fabricate bones to fit their needs. I see no evidence in the Bible that dinosaurs and all that ever existed. Or at the least, if they did it was not as is popularly portrayed. If these beings ever were real, I ain't buying the whole caveman malarky. I accept that in Biblical times, men may have dwelt in caves. That caves were more commonly used as the technology for man to build actual domiciles had not been developed widely. But that whole scene of cavemen dragging women around by the hair, beating stuff with clubs while muttering "Og", and cowering in terror while pterydactyls (sp?) flew overhead is pure myth. Some of y'all wanna gloat about a two thousand year old fable? Well, there's your fable right there.

Hack away.


So whats to stop some of these molecules from interacting with each other in such a way so that they become what we would call self replicating. Once self-replicating molecules had been formed by chance, something like Darwinian natural selection could have begun

Could have might have something like who's to say it didn't. Sounds real scientific there. I'm supposed to base my existence on could have and might haves? No thanks; I'll stick with the Bible if it's all the same.


In the end you find that there is really no clear and clean discernable boundary between “life” and “non-life”. And THAT is where it becomes possible to see how “life” can evolve from inanimate matter.

Life is life; non-life is dead. Is that enough of a clear and discernable boundary for ya? And if THAT is what it takes to have this pile of bullshit become credible, then I'd say you guys are seriously screwed up in the head if your entire theory hinges on there being no difference between alive and non-alive.


My God, what a bunch of idiotic rambling.


Some even posit that life is really kind of an illusion. And that there is no real difference between you or I and the ground we walk on. We are all composed of the same stuff (supernova dust but nevermind that for now…). Now in our case we just happen to be elements in a complex chemical reaction that, because of our brevity of duration we perceive as separate and unique. But really we are but a brief flame rising over one gigantic fire.

Really? Then they shouldn't mind one bit if I walk up and blow their stupid heads off their shoulders, shoud they? After all, they'll still be the same dust and micro-substance, just rearranged a little. And of course, they'll also be part of that "non-life" we discussed above. Wonder why they struggle so to hang on to their life if it really doesn't matter?


but what did he create? Did he create all the parts from whole cloth or did he create the rules and the tools and the ingredients and let the rules do the rest?

He created the heavens and the earth by His will. He created the seas, the dry land, light from the darkness...read Genesis, it's all there. Yes, He did this by His will. He designed the earth with nature and all of nature's rules, including your precious evolution of species to adapt to environmental changes. As I said earlier.




Final conclusion:

Pure, unadulterated, absolute and complete :bs:

It would be laughable, except that people have an immortal soul in jeopardy here. And some day, every person will be held accountable for their life on earth. I really don't like to think about what people who spend their lives subscribing to this nonsense will face then.

But, we have free will, so y'all do as you please. If you really want to believe you came from microscopic pond scum, electrically charged and really no different than a dung heap when it comes right down to it, have at it. Meanwhile, I will continue my beliefs in a loving God who created us in His image, who loves us and cares for us, who asks only that we believe in Him and follow His will for our lives. If I'm wrong, I guess I'll die and return to earth and become nothing more than dirt again.

But if I'm the one who's right...
 

AlladinSane

Well-Known Member
Thulsa Doom said:
but what did he create? Did he create all the parts from whole cloth or did he create the rules and the tools and the ingredients and let the rules do the rest?
Second option
 

Thulsa Doom

New Member
SouthernN'Proud said:
Final conclusion:

Pure, unadulterated, absolute and complete :bs:

well Ill no longer disturb your ignorant bliss then. I can understand how you would be resistant though. When something threatens the very foundations of what you accept with all your heart (myth, allegory or not) its only natural to shut off all rational thinking and circle the psychological wagons and trash the "threat" with extreme prejudice. That goes right along with evolutionary thinking on the development of man by the way. :D Although I must say its a privilege to actually engage in conversation with such a true living breathing extremist such as yourself. I often read about them somewhere out in the "heart land" but I never seem to run into any. I feel kind of like the zoologist who has come upon a rare animal that only was passed on through stories. No dinosaurs.... :D :D

But, we have free will, so y'all do as you please. If you really want to believe you came from microscopic pond scum, electrically charged and really no different than a dung heap when it comes right down to it, have at it.

ah so your logic is you wont even consider it because you feel its insulting?

Meanwhile, I will continue my beliefs in a loving God who created us in His image, who loves us and cares for us, who asks only that we believe in Him and follow His will for our lives. If I'm wrong, I guess I'll die and return to earth and become nothing more than dirt again.

But if I'm the one who's right...

ah so you stick stubbornly to your scientifically preposterous ideas to hedge your bets then. noble of you. a true christian would find this insulting i dare so. there is a higher reason to believe and have faith is there not?
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
Thulsa Doom said:
When something threatens the very foundations of what you accept with all your heart (theory, hypothesis or not) its only natural to shut off all rational thinking and circle the psychological wagons and trash the "threat" with extreme prejudice. That goes right along with creationist thinking on the development of man by the way. :D

Sorry. I couldn't resist. Your argument works quite well both ways. :grinyes:

Your belief in the 'facts', which change whenever somebody comes up with a better idea, is no more different than my belief in a higher being. Both are beliefs. Just because yours are mostly wrong, it doesn't detract from the only truth out there...there are no facts, only theories and hypothesis...;)
 

rrfield

New Member
Didn't the Pope himself say that macro-evolution (not micro-evolution like SnP describes) probably happened and that it does NOT contradict the Bible? He went on to say that evolution is the mechanism used by God to create the world and that science in general does not disprove God, it only makes one appreciate the magnifigance of His creation even more.

But then again the Pope was against the war in Iraq, too, so from what I have learned on OTC he is an idiot to be dismissed at all times.

When reading the books of the Bible, you have to remember that an author has to write to his/her audience. First, consider that Moses or some similar character was talking to a burning bush. Now think about being told about the Big Bang or DNA or radiation...by a burning bush. Even if Moses understood and bought into what this shrub is saying, you think he would have many followers back in the village? He would have been burnt alive by ATF agents. God is no dummy, he knew that he needed to make the story believable to the given audience. I guarantee if God were to re-write the Bible today it would be pretty different.
 

chcr

Too cute for words
Didn't the Pope himself say that macro-evolution (not micro-evolution like SnP describes) probably happened

Actually, the vatican accepted evolution in the 1950s. Still stinging over that Galileo incident, I suppose.
 
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