Hate crime rears it's ugly head

[Gonz]

OK, so a gang-rape is just a crime but a gang-rape of a lesbian is a hate crime? The peopel who rape lesbians are worthy of additional prosecution just because a woman is a lesbian. Man, the power wielded by the homosexual community is amazing.

Story

Since the identified men had hispanic surnames, does that make them immune from prosecution? After all, it would be racist to prosecute 'em.


The thougth police, they live inside of my head.
The thought police, they come to me in my bed.
The thought police, theyre coming to arrest me, oh no.

 

[Frodo]

Hate is a motive, not a crime. This all came about because of years of the left watering down the sentences for violent crimes. "Oh, the poor boy grew up in a bad neighborhood, he was just acting out the injustice of his upbringing." Then when some skin head kills a "protected minority", suddenly the sentences are not tough enough.

 

[MrBishop]

It's just classification, Gonz.

Hate crimes (also known as bias motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her membership in a certain social group, usually defined by racial group, religion, sexual orientation, disability, ethnicity, nationality, age, gender, gender identity, or political affiliation.[1]

 

[Gonz]

I know Bish. So motivation makes the crime worse?

 

[2minkey]

the level and nature of forethought seems to make a big difference in murder charges.

 

[Frodo]

the level and nature of forethought seems to make a big difference in murder charges.

A "hate crime" would suggest a spur of the moment decision, which in the case of murder, lowers the charge.

 

[MrBishop]

Nope..not worst or better. It's just classification but it does speak to intent.

Murder v. manslaughter v. homocide v. matricide v. infanticide

They all mean that someone's dead. Does help in choosing the punishment if you know the intent and the planning...in the same way as planning on killing your wife to get the insurance is far worst a crime than finding her in bed with your brother and killing her on the spot. One's murder and the other is a crime of passion and reduced in kind. Doesn't make the wife any less dead.

ie: Spraypainting a swastika on the side of a business is a misdemeanor. Spraypainting a swastika on the side of a synagogue is no longer a misdemeanor...not because it's not spraypainting..but because whoever did it meant to send a specific message to those how attend said synagogue.

 

[2minkey]

A "hate crime" would suggest a spur of the moment decision.

right. spur of the moment. well hey, good thing they usually carry rope around!

 

[Gonz]

Alright, so does intent make rape any worse? Had it only been random rape it wouldn't be as severe?

 

[2minkey]

probably not, but it's a lot easier to kill someone accidentally than rape someone accidentally. the nature of the crimes is different. and we have this ability, as speaking and thinking apes, to make decisions as good, okay, bad, and worse. we can weigh impact and intent in deciding just how horrific something is. egodystonic homocide is bad. planning to kill your boss is worse. planning to kill a random person of color, who has no relation to you whatsoever?

 

[Gonz]

Intent, in murder, does change the rules.

Since rape is a planned act, under all conditions, intent doesn't matter.

As Bish said, you walk in & find your wife & your bud in bed, a crime from emotion MAY happen. They'll be no less dead but your actions were not taken with forthought & malice.

It's also why I find "date rape" a detestable term. Rape is an unwanted & forcible sexual connection. Changing your mind in the middle of it doen't make it rape. Rape, because of any real or imagined outside influence, is still an act of violence.

Having the thought police involved isn't gonna change jack-shit.

 

[MrBishop]

I wouldn't say that rape is a planned act 100% of the time.

"date rape" is not rape, so much as it is sexual assault. The terms are so muddled. Rape by definition means unwanted sex attained through violence or the threat of violence...but many rapes don't involve coitus whatsoever, but are often violent and/or demeaning - control of one person over another physically. This sometimes means coitus...sometimes. Rape is often what people think of when they picture the stranger leaping from bushes etc...

Date rape is often misinterpretation of intent and expectation. The assaulter wanted to take the situation to the next level physically, but the assaulted did not. The assaulter did not take 'no' for an answer. As such it's an assault (forced and often dealing injury in the process). - it get swept into the same definition of 'rape'.

Statutory rape is another story entirely. Both people involved may very well want to have sex, but one or both are under-age. This is usually filed by one of the parents against their child's 'assaulter'.

Sexual contact while under the influence of alcohol, drugs or unconsciousness is considered rape as well..because one or both people involved were in no condition to give consent. It should be considered sexual assault instead of rape unless one person planned on using drugs, alcohol to render the target pliable'.

I think that it all boils down to intent and planning..especially in the case noted. The assaulters knew her sexual-identity and picked her because of it, took umbrage to it..bullied her ahead of time, planned a location and time to assault her and went through with the rape.

As such, the crime is that much more vile. Sentencing should take that into effect.

 

[pc_builder]

I think that it all boils down to intent and planning..especially in the case noted. The assaulters knew her sexual-identity and picked her because of it, took umbrage to it..bullied her ahead of time, planned a location and time to assault her and went through with the rape.

Only playing devil's advocate here. But how can you presume to know all that from reading the news story?

Detectives say the 28-year-old victim was attacked on Dec. 13 after she got out of her car, which bore a rainbow gay pride sticker. The alleged attackers made comments indicating they knew she was a lesbian, police said.

Isn't it possible they only 'knew' she was a lesbian because of the gay pride sticker on her bumper?

I'm just curious about the assumptions being made to support that this was an intentional, pre-meditated, hate crime.

 

[Gonz]

I wouldn't say that rape is a planned act 100% of the time.

The actions required, assuming he's not wearing shorts & she a mini, sans undergarment, require fore-thought. Which is why I think it's always planned. There is enough time to reconsider action.

The assaulter did not take 'no' for an answer.

That's when it goes into the rape classification. Although, depending on the mutual interaction prior to this point, it's real sticky. (pardon the probable pun)

Sexual contact while under the influence of alcohol, drugs

At what point does it go from a libido enhancer to a crime? If the party under the influence voluntarily got high, that argument becomes less absolute.

unconsciousness is rape

The assaulters knew her sexual-identity and picked her because of it, took umbrage to it..bullied her ahead of time, planned a location and time to assault her and went through with the rape.

As such, the crime is that much more vile. Sentencing should take that into effect.

To make this clear, this rape is worse than a random act of stranger rape?

 

[MrBishop]

The actions required, assuming he's not wearing shorts & she a mini, sans undergarment, require fore-thought. Which is why I think it's always planned. There is enough time to reconsider action.

A bit of a slope... knowing how to remove clothing yours and his/hers requires some forethought...but premeditation? Picking a locale, time and target would be closer to premeditation IMO.

That's when it goes into the rape classification. Although, depending on the mutual interaction prior to this point, it's real sticky. (pardon the probable pun)

Exactly why I am not a lawyer. The devil is in the details.

At what point does it go from a libido enhancer to a crime? If the party under the influence voluntarily got high, that argument becomes less absolute.

Situational. If the party decided after the fact that it was non-consentual? That's why they have 'beyond a shadow of a doubt'

To make this clear, this rape is worse than a random act of stranger rape?

The intent and pre-planning makes it worst. The act itself is equal. She's still a victim of rape.

 

[MrBishop]

Only playing devil's advocate here. But how can you presume to know all that from reading the news story?



Isn't it possible they only 'knew' she was a lesbian because of the gay pride sticker on her bumper?

I'm just curious about the assumptions being made to support that this was an intentional, pre-meditated, hate crime.

The 45-minute attack started when one of the men approached the woman in the street, struck her with a blunt object, ordered her to disrobe and sexually assaulted her with the help of the others, according to detectives.


When the group saw another person approaching, they forced the victim back into her car and took her to a burned-out apartment building. She was raped again inside and outside the vehicle and left naked outside the building while the alleged assailants took her wallet and drove off in her car, police said.

Whether she is/was a lesbian is irrelevant. They assumed that she was because of the sticker. They said that she was a lesbian, and likely the reasoning for being picked. They most likely did not plan this days or even hours in advance, but it was executed rather effectivly for something potentially 'unplanned'.

 

[Frodo]

The 45-minute attack started when one of the men approached the woman in the street, struck her with a blunt object, ordered her to disrobe and sexually assaulted her with the help of the others, according to detectives.


When the group saw another person approaching, they forced the victim back into her car and took her to a burned-out apartment building. She was raped again inside and outside the vehicle and left naked outside the building while the alleged assailants took her wallet and drove off in her car, police said.

Whether she is/was a lesbian is irrelevant. They assumed that she was because of the sticker. They said that she was a lesbian, and likely the reasoning for being picked. They most likely did not plan this days or even hours in advance, but it was executed rather effectivly for something potentially 'unplanned'.

What if she was raped because she was white? Would that be a hate crime? What if it was because she was a woman?

 

[Inkara1]

What if she was raped because she was white? Would that be a hate crime? What if it was because she was a woman?

It's WAY too easy to make a joke about raping a man in San Francisco. Said joke would probably involve the term, "surprise buttsecks," too.

 

[spike]

A "hate crime" would suggest a spur of the moment decision, which in the case of murder, lowers the charge.

Hate crime does not suggect a spur of the moment decision.

 

[spike]

It's also why I find "date rape" a detestable term. Rape is an unwanted & forcible sexual connection. Changing your mind in the middle of it doen't make it rape.

Seems you're confused that date rape means someone changed their mind in the middle of it. it is a useful term because it means someone that you knew did the raping.