Illegal is equal to (word that I'd put here but the whole board would collapse)

HomeLAN

New Member
SouthernN'Proud said:
Let me clarify.

I ain't talking about the Midwestern farmer who owns and tends 3000 acres of wheat. I refer to smaller operations. Example: One man near me owns a sizable herd of Black Angus cattle. Has a farm near me, and a full blown ranch in Montana. He does quite well. He has a half dozen or so Latin workers he employs. They live in an old barn...but it has been renovated into an apartment, complete with AC, heat, running water, electricity...nicer than my house truth be told. He pays these men some (I do not know how much), but provides all their living expenses free, plus they eat at his table during harvest season and other times when the work is non-stop.

Is that ethical treatment?

Maybe. Are they here legally?

No? Then no. We don;t need to go any further. He's robbing me through gov't gimmes to illegals, and that's not ethical.

Yes? Well, room and board do figure into compensation. Sounds like he's treating them well.


Example 2: Another farmer near here plants about 12 acres of bell peppers and squash. He sells these to a local canning outfit. He cannot afford modern harvesting equipment, so he hires who he can, regardless of native tongue or other status. They are paid by the pound for what they harvest, flat rate cash in hand, no questions asked.

Is that ethical?

No. See above. I think we can assume they ain't legal, and that means this dude is ripping me off for his own profit margins.
 

Professur

Well-Known Member
Not to mention that jobs like that are what summer vacation for kids was all about. Have your farmer go to the local 4H, or whatever and hire himself up a bunch of kids for the same 50 cents a bushel that he's paying his illegals. Get's the kids busy. Gives them a little cash, and keeps them off the street corners.
 

HomeLAN

New Member
Professur said:
Not to mention that jobs like that are what summer vacation for kids was all about. Have your farmer go to the local 4H, or whatever and hire himself up a bunch of kids for the same 50 cents a bushel that he's paying his illegals. Get's the kids busy. Gives them a little cash, and keeps them off the street corners.

While you're at it, obey the damned law. Download an I9 and make all of 'em fill one out, with the supporting docs. Takes 5 minutes, and you're legal.
 

SouthernN'Proud

Southern Discomfort
Professur said:
Not to mention that jobs like that are what summer vacation for kids was all about. Have your farmer go to the local 4H, or whatever and hire himself up a bunch of kids for the same 50 cents a bushel that he's paying his illegals. Get's the kids busy. Gives them a little cash, and keeps them off the street corners.

1. How long has it been since you talked to a 14 year old kid?

2. We don't have street corners back here.

3. I did my time doing exactly what you recommend. I hauled hay, topped/cut/hauled tobacco, you name it. I agree. Best of luck getting a kid to do it today.
 

Professur

Well-Known Member
HomeLAN said:
While you're at it, obey the damned law. Download an I9 and make all of 'em fill one out, with the supporting docs. Takes 5 minutes, and you're legal.

Hold up there, par'd. You forget. Most highschool kids wouldn't be able to fill out a form, without aid.
 

HomeLAN

New Member
Their part is the same info they have to fill out to get their check. Ya know, name address, birthdate? It ain't rocket science, and these forms were made with public school graduates in mind.
 

Professur

Well-Known Member
SouthernN'Proud said:
1. How long has it been since you talked to a 14 year old kid?

2. We don't have street corners back here.

3. I did my time doing exactly what you recommend. I hauled hay, topped/cut/hauled tobacco, you name it. I agree. Best of luck getting a kid to do it today.

The kid who does my lawn. Or the kid that shovels the snow. Or the kid who yells at the topof his lungs when he's heading for the corner store incase anyone wants his to bring them anything.
 

SouthernN'Proud

Southern Discomfort
So, if I am understanding correctly, every small farmer who cannot afford to purchase the most modern equipment, or at least enough to do the work for him, should either pay market rate with money he already does not have...no guarantee on what the crop produces mind you...or get out of the business.

I hope you guys like tofu.

Take the small farmer out of the picture, and our agricultural system collapses. Plain and simple. Leave it to the big dogs, and you'll pay dearly for every bite you eat.

I know roughly what it costs me to earn my living. $X for transportation to and from work, $X for clothing upgrades as needed, and so on. I also know what I will bring home from that job. Thus, I am able to adequately budget and at the very least stay solvent.

Farmers have no guarantees. They have the same cash outlay, and one storm can wipe all of it out. It costs them for every step they take. It's a gamble, one they willingly take, but a gamble nonetheless. Most farmers I know laugh at the notion of profit margins. They are concerned about making the light bill. They pay tax on what they buy, they pay tax on what they earn, and every cent of it is completely dependent on rainfall amounts. To then force them to pay $8 an hour to get it out of the field is just not realistic for them. Since 99.9% of the locals refuse to do farm work for the going rate, what alternative is left? When was the last time you green carded the guy making your lunch at China Garden?

If you've never farmed, there is no way you would ever understand what it's like.
 

Luis G

<i><b>Problemator</b></i>
Staff member
HomeLAN said:
No, the solution is to refuse to hire illegals and pay a market wage to legal workers. Illegals need to get the fuck outta here, and if there's no way to work, they'll do that.

The only solution is to guard your border properly. That way you wouldn't have illegals and we wouldn't have a problem with carteles.
 

SouthernN'Proud

Southern Discomfort
I disagree.

As proof, I offer this tidbit: Metropolitan cities are full of illegals, with no farm work to be had. I wager that over half of the illegals there do not work at all. So it ain't "easy job availability" IMO.
 

HomeLAN

New Member
SouthernN'Proud said:
So, if I am understanding correctly, every small farmer who cannot afford to purchase the most modern equipment, or at least enough to do the work for him, should either pay market rate with money he already does not have...no guarantee on what the crop produces mind you...or get out of the business.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned passing those costs on through the market system and my willingness to pay higher food prices? It's up there.

As for carding the guy at the Chinese joint, I trust his employer to do that for me. One more reason it pisses me off when the employer chooses not to do so.
 

Professur

Well-Known Member
*cough*Walmart*cough*


Sorry, S&P, but you didn't understand me correctly. And considering how much food is wasted, grain destroyed to keep the prices up .....

Like I said. The small acre farmer I buy from does quite well for himself. And no illegals involved. And a little diversity on his part helps prevent one failure from destroying his entire year. Unlike the Big Guys with all the modern equipment, who grow 100+ acres at a time of the same thing.

Oh, and just a footnote. My mother grew up on a farm in N. Ireland. Two of her sisters married farmers and are still on those farms today. It might suprise you to learn that I actually know quite a lot about the workings of a farm. Considering that I helped set up the inventory/acc't software for them.
 

JJR512

New Member
Aug. 17, 2005, 7:58AM

Survey: Half of Mexicans want to come here
Analysts in that nation blast a U.S.-based poll as misleading
By IOAN GRILLO
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle Foreign Service


MEXICO CITY - A survey reported Tuesday that nearly half of all Mexicans would like to live in the United States and that the sentiment seemed as strong among Mexico's college-educated middle class as the poor.

Some analysts said the results reflect the failure of the Mexican economy to provide good jobs and satisfactory wages, despite a decade of the North American Free Trade Agreement.

Mexican government officials, however, attacked the report's conclusion as misleading and unrealistic.


'Propensity to migrate'
In the survey of 1,200 Mexican adults, conducted in May by the Washington-based Pew Hispanic Center, 46 percent said they would like to live in the United States if they had the opportunity. Among college graduates, 35 percent said they would head north.

"Even at the high ends of the socioeconomic characteristics, we see that the propensity to migrate is quite strong," said Pew Hispanic Center Director Roberto Suro in Washington. "Mexico's economy doesn't satisfy their expectations."

The survey also concluded that 21 percent of Mexicans are inclined to work in the United States without proper entry documents.


A different story
The survey drew fire from at least one analyst here, Daniel Lund, director of the Mexico City-based market research firm Mund Americas.

"It is one thing asking people in an abstract sense if they would prefer better wages," Lund said. "It's another seeing how many people are actually making the trip northward."

Lund said that his firm's own surveys have found that only 15 percent of Mexicans have a real desire to head to the U.S.

Salvador Berumen, a director at the Mexican government's Population Council, said the idea of half of Mexicans wanting to leave was alarmist and unfeasible.

"We understand immigration is a serious problem, but we shouldn't exaggerate the issue," Berumen said. " ... If half of the population wanted to leave, this country would be deserted."

According to the Population Council, 400,000 Mexicans, or less than 0.4 percent of the population, migrate to the United States every year. About 75 percent of these people enter the United States illegally, the council says. In July, the CIA estimated Mexico's population at 106 million.

Nearly 11 million illegal immigrants live in the United States, including about 6 million Mexicans, according to a recent report from the Pew Hispanic Center.


NAFTA effects negligible
Many Mexican politicians hoped NAFTA, which went into effect in 1994, would raise wages.

But stiff competition from China, and a long-running depression in the Mexican agriculture sector, have kept unemployment high and wages low, said Monica Gambrill, an expert on the agreement at Mexico's National Autonomous University.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3313798
 

HomeLAN

New Member
SouthernN'Proud said:
I disagree.

As proof, I offer this tidbit: Metropolitan cities are full of illegals, with no farm work to be had. I wager that over half of the illegals there do not work at all. So it ain't "easy job availability" IMO.

You'd wager wrong. They hang out in Home Depot parking lots waiting for Johnny homeowner who needs some cheap day labor to help build his play room. They do this by the hundreds. I have one neighbor who won't talk to me anymore becuase he told him to his face he was ripping me off by using those guys.
 

SouthernN'Proud

Southern Discomfort
HomeLAN said:
Did you miss the part where I mentioned passing those costs on through the market system and my willingness to pay higher food prices? It's up there.

As for carding the guy at the Chinese joint, I trust his employer to do that for me. One more reason it pisses me off when the employer chooses not to do so.

No I didn't miss it. I just don't think you have any inkling just how much higher it would be.

Example - I usually plant a garden. Nothing to sell, just for our own use. We can beans, freeze corn, and the rest is either eaten or given away to friends. I do it because I enjoy it. By the time I buy the seed alone, it is cheaper to buy vegetables at the store. That doesn't count the fertilizer, the bug spray, the gas for the tiller, the tiller itself, and paying myself nothing for my labor. Multiply that by acres. Now add in this labor expense. It's cheaper to buy food that someone else has planted, tended, harvested (probably by illegals), transported to a processing plant, has been canned (by laborers), transported to the store, marked up for retail, and then sold to you than it is to grow it yourself.

No, I don't think you have any idea how much more you'd be paying.

As for the guy making your shrimp fried rice...his employer is his cousin, or mother, or brother, or whatnot. Do you honestly expect me to believe for one second that it's all on the up and up? C'mon, man, we both know better. Yet that doesn't seem to bother us when that urge for sweet and sour chicken hits.

I'll repeat. I am hearing you on reducing illegals here. Yer preaching to the choir. I'm a card carrying member of the ship 'em the hell out club. But I'm also a realist. When no one else will do the job, they will. That's not altogether a bad trait. It may be an indictment of our priorities as a society, but that's a different ball of wax.
 

HomeLAN

New Member
SouthernN'Proud said:
I'll repeat. I am hearing you on reducing illegals here. Yer preaching to the choir. I'm a card carrying member of the ship 'em the hell out club. But I'm also a realist. When no one else will do the job, they will. That's not altogether a bad trait.

If you actually feel that way, you'd best eb damned quiet about your wish to ship 'em the hell home. That would sound a whole lot like wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

As for "that don't matter when the urge for sweet and sour hits", you just proved you don't know me too well. If I thought the chinese joint around the corner wasn't legal, I by god wouldn't go there.
 
Top