ON guns. Intresting link/survey included

Aunty Em said:
What the fuck has a northern english meatball got to do with guns?

Jokes aside, I have to admit that if I lived in a country where it is legal to own a handgun and there was as much violent crime going on, then I would be down the local gunclub and I would probably carry one on my person... although the first rule of self-defence is to avoid situations where you may get into trouble as much as possible and I would hope I would never have to use it... but if I did, my attacker wouldn't be getting up in a hurry.
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Yeap.

Being a gun owner is like buying a fire extinguisher or a life insurance policy on your spouse. You hope you never have need for it, but not taking the precaution in the first place is virtually inexcusable.

As from a saftey stand point of gun ownership..well its really a non-issue. You are about %700 more likley to suffer injury or the injury of a loved one while in the car on the way to the insurance office as you are from the actual ownership of a gun. You wouldnt let a child, unstable or inexperienced person handle a gun anymore than you should give them the keys to your car. Aside from "common" sense, there isnt much else to the issue.

The .001% who are irresponsible gun owners garner about 80% of the media attention and the other 20% would be the criminals that responsible law abiding gun owners which to defend themselves against. In north carolina there were well over 120,000 citizens liscensed to carry concealed weapons and as of 2001 not a single one of them had been in trouble on a weapons violation, although one guy lost his CCW for testing positive for prescription pain medications while in possesion of a firearm.

Colorado isnt a reason to ban guns, its a reason more people need to be prepared to defend themselves from wackos..whatever their choice of destruction., be it knives, gasoline, axe, liquid propane, or a gun.
 
bleach said:
Intertin' link.......shame it's a bit outdated as now anyone caught carring a firearm illegally has to serve a mandatory 5 yr sentence, wether the firearm was used to aid a crime or not.
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Id expect to see crime go up even further. It will especially increase on women, elderly, and children and handicapped folks.

What is to hinder the criminal short of posting an police officer on every street corner at all times?

It seems individual citizens will not have the opportunity to take drastic self defense measures and will just be killed, murdered, and rapped.

Im curious, does the leadership there not think the population is intelligent enough to make responsible choices about this stuff on their own?

We will see soon enough as more stastics come out.
 
bleach said:
Just a quick question..........how many crimes involved the use of guns?:)

I'm a Brit you see.........lived in three different cities and have never been an eye witness to crime involiving guns, just like to know the statistics before I make my mind up
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Me neither! Of course, I lived for 20 years without seeing a person die and every single person that ever lived dies eventually so personal experience on somthing like that is of little value in proving its not a problem.
 
chcr said:
What percentage of those gun owners were police officers?
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I would expect almost none of them. The nature of police buisness is that they take "calls" and make routine traffic stops.

They are usually a glorified clean up crew and nothing more. By the time someone can place the call, they get the call, and then answer the call...the crime is already committed...they would be %100 impotent to prevent the crime. The best anyone can hope for is that the catch the person who did it and even then...its a "hope".

Unless someone at the location where the call gets placed was the ones doing the "preventing", you can pretty much gaurantee...it didnt get prevented at all.
 
It has never been legal to carry a concealed weapon over here, and certainly not to use it to defend yourself... case of Tony Martin in point. Although you can turn almost anything into a weapon e.g. bunch of keys, walking stick, etc.

Most handguns in this country, when they were legal, were sold to gunclub members who were licenced or were replicas. Both are now banned. In general, you don't see guns on the street here unless you happen to live in an inner city where the yardies operate.

But I recently read that the police "SAS" unit (I can't remember it's name) has been making serious inroads as far as they are concerned.
 
AnomalousEntity said:
Id expect to see crime go up even further. It will especially increase on women, elderly, and children and handicapped folks.
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Any particular reason behind this assumption?

What is to hinder the criminal short of posting an police officer on every street corner at all times?
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The Law

It seems individual citizens will not have the opportunity to take drastic self defense measures and will just be killed, murdered, and rapped.
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Pepper Spray, Stun Guns, Personal alarms.......plenty of options that don't mean a firearm falls into the hands of the criminal if their attempt at a mugging is successful despite the victim carrying a weapon.

Im curious, does the leadership there not think the population is intelligent enough to make responsible choices about this stuff on their own?
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Nope...it thinks the population enjoys living in a decriminalised country where guns are not a huge consumer market and thus very difficult to get hold of.

We will see soon enough as more stastics come out.
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Then please post only statistics that offer both points of view....and not ones wich are so blatantly biased :)
 
AnomalousEntity said:
Me neither! Of course, I lived for 20 years without seeing a person die and every single person that ever lived dies eventually so personal experience on somthing like that is of little value in proving its not a problem.
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Dunno...........I've never met a paranoid person.....does that mean I might have a problem? ;)
 
Professur said:
I've had a gun held to my head. I want a gun.
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Two things:

1) You were at work...even if you were allowed to carry a handgun, you wouldn't have been allowed to while at work.
2) You'd be dead...no one can pull out a gun, aim and fire accuratly faster than it would take someone with a gun already drawn and aimed to merely pull the trigger.

Sorry Prof., but I prefer you gun-less and alive. :evilcool:
 
bleach said:
Any particular reason behind this assumption?
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Already posted. Unarmed citizens make fodder for criminals.



The Law
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So your saying that murderous raping burglars are suddenly going to stop committing crime because you now have a law? If they were so concerned with law they wouldnt be criminals in the first place.



Pepper Spray, Stun Guns, Personal alarms.......plenty of options that don't mean a firearm falls into the hands of the criminal if their attempt at a mugging is successful despite the victim carrying a weapon.
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Good options. Unfortunately the criminals will keep their guns. How about you go up against a 9mm with a can of pepper spray and let me know how it turns out.


Nope...it thinks the population enjoys living in a decriminalised country where guns are not a huge consumer market and thus very difficult to get hold of.
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I have a quote back for you on this idea:

"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State." -- Heinrich Himmler

"All military type firearms are to be handed in immediately ...The SS, SA and Stahlhelm give every respectable German man the opportunity of campaigning with them. Therefore anyone who does not belong to one of the above named organizations and who unjustifiably nevertheless keeps his weapon ... must be regarded as an enemy of the national government." -- SA Oberfuhrer of Bad Tolz, March, 1933.

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected peoples to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing." -- Adolph Hitler, Edict of March 18, 1938
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Then please post only statistics that offer both points of view....and not ones wich are so blatantly biased
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Feel free to introduce stastics of your own.
 
Correction. At first, the gun was held on Chance. I'd have had a clear shot, and blown his fucking head off.
 
MrBishop said:
Two things:

1) You were at work...even if you were allowed to carry a handgun, you wouldn't have been allowed to while at work.
2) You'd be dead...no one can pull out a gun, aim and fire accuratly faster than it would take someone with a gun already drawn and aimed to merely pull the trigger.

Sorry Prof., but I prefer you gun-less and alive. :evilcool:
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Thats true Bish, perhaps he was insinuating that he wouldnt have ever gotten into the position in the first place had he been armed?

Nevertheless there are many work places where you can carry a firearm. Many people who have work environments where it is prohibited do it anyway (the rationale is they would rather be fired than shot).

Lastly, you make a good point. The chances of living through a point blank gun battle are only %50. However the chances of living through it if you are unarmed are less than %20.

I am more concerned with having it for cases where your not already under the gun. For example, spree killers when you are a witness or cold blooded murder when you are a witness. Also for situations where you would see a suspicous person approaching and you would have the ability to get your hand on it in prepardness...

Its not a gaurantee...but it puts the odds greater in your favor and the overall knowledge to criminals that they are likely to be shot on the spot for committing crime by armed citizens has to be a deterrent.
 
bleach said:
Dunno...........I've never met a paranoid person.....does that mean I might have a problem? ;)
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Eh,

I dont think any of the countless thousands in my country and yours who are murdered or rapped each year would think self defense with a bullistic weapon to only be the vice of the "paranoid" . Do you?

Most victims are not in fact paranoid..they never see it coming.

Do you think it makes their loved ones feel better to hear:

"oh Im so sorry John was stabbed ....well you can take solace in knowing he wasn't paranoid"
 
AnomalousEntity said:
Eh,

I dont think any of the countless thousands in my country and yours who are murdered or rapped each year would think self defense with a bullistic weapon to only be the vice of the "paranoid" . Do you?

Most victims are not in fact paranoid..they never see it coming.

Do you think it makes their loved ones feel better to hear:

"oh Im so sorry John was stabbed ....well you can take solace in knowing he wasn't paranoid"
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The point is there are multiple options to defend yourself that do not demand that you carry a gun.

Good options. Unfortunately the criminals will keep their guns. How about you go up against a 9mm with a can of pepper spray and let me know how it turns out.
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I've yet to hear about a mugging, burglary or rape that happened at a distance that requires a firearm (unless the burglary was undetected of course.

So your saying that murderous raping burglars are suddenly going to stop committing crime because you now have a law? If they were so concerned with law they wouldnt be criminals in the first place.
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Not at all.......I'm saying that the law in the UK is changing to prevent the chance of criminals (and remember, most crimes are spontaneous towards an individual) carrying guns...... a civilian who is found wandering around at night (most muggings and rapes happen at night) is more likely to be stopped by the authorities.....and a mandatory 5 years in jail for even carrying a firearm (not to mention the punishment for carrying a blade over 3 inches in length) is a good deterent to would-be criminals using firearms in their activities.

Feel free to introduce stastics of your own.
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No thanks.......I can post anti-gun propaganda bullshit all day.

The law is there for after the fact. Criminals don't pay attention to it.
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True, but in the UK all guns for use in criminal activity need to be bought illegally...........tightened laws on gun ownership therefore reduce the willingness of many to either sell illegal weapons and those who hold them.

EDIT: As much fun as this discussion in........I really can't be arsed with it.

I gues it all boils down to how safe you feel in your own society.......I've never felt the need to carry a gun......and I hope I never need to. If you feel the need to carry a gun for your personal security.......move somewhere else ....... I've heard that Bhagdad is nice this time of year ;)
 
AnomalousEntity said:
Eh,

I dont think any of the countless thousands in my country and yours who are murdered or rapped each year would think self defense with a bullistic weapon to only be the vice of the "paranoid" . Do you?
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Most of the murders that occur in the UK are domestic... the victim knows their killer. "Spree" killings as you call them are rare... As a direct result of the last major incident in 1988 at Dunblaine Primary School in Hungerford handguns where banned and gun controls tightened.

We don't have kids walking into school and killing people with their dad's guns just because they are pissed at something... their Dads don't have guns. There are far more muggings using knives or the threat of violence by a gang than gun crime in this country.

Stranger abductions are also rare although the media tend to play it up when they do occur. Plus if you look at the statistics for rape, again the victim often knows their attacker. The actual danger in this country is far less than the perceived danger as portrayed by the media.

I certainly have no fear of walking out of my front door or being afraid someone is going to shoot me. These thoughts don't even occur to me on a day to day basis and long may it remain so. I have been on this earth 47 years and I have never witnessed a violent crime.
 
Aunty Em said:
We don't have kids walking into school and killing people with their dad's guns just because they are pissed at something... their Dads don't have guns.
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I went to high school in a small town of just over 2,000. From what I've heard, everyone said the same thing before a kid walked in the school and shot four people, one fatally (the Principal). That was 1985. It was one of the first school shootings in the nation, and it horrified everyone. However, the event seems to be easily forgotten. I'm not saying that you're wrong. Simply put, just watch what you say. :) The phrase "famous last words" comes to mind. Just because it can't doesn't mean it won't. ;)
 
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