ON guns. Intresting link/survey included

freako104 said:
i hate to say it this way Bish, but i dont knwo that youll have peace. youll have less shootings granted but you can still have knives,cars,and hands too can be used to kill someone(points on the body if utilised correctly can kill someone). poeple will find ways if they feel they need to. but otherwise i somewhat agree. but i still defend the second amendment since its a right

OK...it's still a right.As a right, it should be defended, but not as feverishly as I would expect someone to defend freedom of speach, or freedom of religion, assembly etc...

I think that you can't put the 'right to bear arms' even close to the importance of the others, even though some people place it higher.

Now...some knives are created to hurt others...I see them all the damn time at Pawn Shops. Rambo-knives, barbarian knives etc... Switchblades, and trench-knives, etc...I can see those being banned. But...however efficient it might be at the task, cleavers weren't designed to be fighting tools.

I'l like to see one of you try to use a gun for something else. I can see the headlines now...man shooots himself while using handgun to nail in self-portrait. :)

Please keep in mind Freako104, that the post that you're replying to was the bastard child of too much stress and too little sleep. I'm not exactly THAT maniatical about the gun issue. I just don't like when people use rote arguements against me. Statistics created by the group in question, to help support the group i question and squewed that way. F'r instance....I very much doubt that 1 million lives were saved last year through the use of guns by the general populace. Rote arguements like "Guns don't kill people..." and "If guns are illegal, then only criminals have guns" are rote arguements...not well thought out by the person using them. A personally thought out, but weaker arguement would give me more pause and gain more of my respect that a really well thought out, but 'borrowed' arguement.
 
MrBishop said:
OK...it's still a right.As a right, it should be defended, but not as feverishly as I would expect someone to defend freedom of speach, or freedom of religion, assembly etc...

I think that you can't put the 'right to bear arms' even close to the importance of the others, even though some people place it higher.

Now...some knives are created to hurt others...I see them all the damn time at Pawn Shops. Rambo-knives, barbarian knives etc... Switchblades, and trench-knives, etc...I can see those being banned. But...however efficient it might be at the task, cleavers weren't designed to be fighting tools.

I'l like to see one of you try to use a gun for something else. I can see the headlines now...man shooots himself while using handgun to nail in self-portrait. :)

Please keep in mind Freako104, that the post that you're replying to was the bastard child of too much stress and too little sleep. I'm not exactly THAT maniatical about the gun issue. I just don't like when people use rote arguements against me. Statistics created by the group in question, to help support the group i question and squewed that way. F'r instance....I very much doubt that 1 million lives were saved last year through the use of guns by the general populace. Rote arguements like "Guns don't kill people..." and "If guns are illegal, then only criminals have guns" are rote arguements...not well thought out by the person using them. A personally thought out, but weaker arguement would give me more pause and gain more of my respect that a really well thought out, but 'borrowed' arguement.


Dont bet on that Bish. I get just as pissed off about restrictions on the freedom of speech, illegal search etc etc.


I really really do.

Dont believe me? Go to Hardware central and search "Necessary Evil" about "freedom of speech" when they were threatning to remove the OT forum!

(can you still search threads on HWC that were posted from OT).

Id love to dig up some of the Outlaw69 posts for a good laugh.


Food for thought: NOt everything that is "rote" is also "false".....
 
Gonz said:
It was either that deer or me... :winkkiss:

Sorry to drag up ancient history here, but I thought it was to funny to ignore.

On the TV yesterday there was a show called 'Worst Case Scenarios', i think its a US show so you might have heard of it... anyway they had an interesting bit about deer hunters.

Most of you hunters probably knnow about doe scent? It's a spray that attracts male deer, anyway you are NEVER, EVER supposed to spray it on yourself.

There was a hunter who wanted to tape himself hunting and shootinga deer, so he got his wife to bring a camera along, and to be sure he would find a deer, he sprayed himself, liberally, with doe scent.

Later they were in the woods and a buck jumped out and attacked him! he had two guns on him but the deer knocked him down and he dropped one and couldn't get to the other, so he tried to fight it off. He eventually mangaed to get up, run, and climb a tree, but alot of other people weren't so lucky.

According to the show, over 30 hunters are killed by deer each year by doing something stupid like that...

my point, GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, DEER DO!!! :D
 
*sigh*

Open the mind, grasshopper. Am I gonna have to write yet another manifesto?

Paul, those same long arms that the yanks buy in Walmart were availible 10 years ago at Canadian Tire.

Bish, a machete can be bought at those same Canadian Tire shops for $8. Gonna outlaw them too? How about your bow? Is there any use for that outside of killing? I didn't think so. Yet you still own it, doncha? Wanna tell us all why?

BTW, make all the laws you want. They're not gonna stop anyone owning a gun. The punk who put a 12 guage to my head wasn't worried about a cop seeing him. The guy with a .32 snub nose in the glove box isn't either. Nor the guy with a gunsafe full of semi-auto rifles, reconverted Uzis, and pump action shotguns. Stop selling guns? Any competent machine shop can turn out at least a working gun every other day. Any kid taking metal shop in highschool has toyed with the idea of making a zipgun. All the stuff to make your own bullets is availible mailorder. Purchased guns are much safer, but what the hell.

Now, instead of carpping on, and on, and on, about getting rid of guns (which'll never happen) why not talk common sense and talk education? Hey, here's an idea. Teach gun safety in the schools.

<pc whiner> Oh My God!! You can't mean let children play with guns!!!


No, I don't mean let kids play with guns. I mean, educate them about guns. That they're not toys. That they're dangerous. That they kill. At least, in grade one. Later on, take them out, and teach them to shoot. Teach them control. More importantly, take the mystique off guns. Kill the ego trip.

Let's look for a minute at who uses a gun to kill, shall we?



1) Intent murderers. These guys are gonna kill anyways. If they don't get guns, they'll use cars, knives, swords, machetes, axes, stairs, rancid meat, rat poison, electricity, water, gasoline, peanuts, garden tools, ... you get the message. Gun restrictions aren't gonna affect this guy at all.

2) Crime of passion. Well, this guy wasn't planning on kiling anyone, so he didn't make any special preparations. If there's a gun close at hand, he'll use it. A knife, an ashtray, a lamp, .. Again, not having a gun at hand isn't gonna bother this guy too much.

3) Thieves, muggers, rapists. Basically, all the criminals who aren't specifically there to off their victim. They bring the gun along for moral support. They just wanna scare the victim into giving in without a fight. Usually, if these guys have a gun, it's because they stole it. Restricting sales and registration is bypassed. And they seldom start off with a gun. They start off with a knife. A new trend is to use mace or pepper spray. So restricting guns aren't gonna slow these guys up much either. If noone has a gun, they'll have plenty of leverage using a squirt gun full of drain cleaner, or a suringe full of anything they can pass off as AIDS infected blood.

(Hmmm. A lot of criminals getting through here)

4) Accidents. Ah, here we go. Finally, somewhere where not having a gun will save someone. Of course, having a properly stored gun would also save the same person. Hmmm. Well, we obviously can't trust someone to care for their own gun, can we. But wait, if we e.d.u.c.a.t.e the kids first ... Then they'll know not to touch it, won't they? But what about preschoolers, you say? Well, I think the gun lobby would happily agree to upping the trigger pressure on guns to something in the 10 to 15 lbs range. I don't know too many kids with hands that strong, do you?

So, let's look back, shall we?

Instead of whining about something that'll never change, we need to look for ways to make guns less dangerous. Perhaps restrict calliber sizes. A .22 is much more survivable than a .50 out of a Desert Eagle. Making gun ownership mandatory, as one US town did ensures that everyone gets a gun education. No one's impressed by guns. Noone's scared of them. Gun's, at that point, are reduced from a phobic monster, to a tool. No more mystic, or dangerous than a drywall saw.

BTW, the drywall saw in my toolbelt makes a lot bigger hole than any bullet, and is a lot less survivable.
 
MrBishop said:
I think that you can't put the 'right to bear arms' even close to the importance of the others, even though some people place it higher.

And how do you propose to defend those other rights without this one?



Cripes. Here I am, a monarchist, having to defend the Constitution of a bunch of rebel scum. Worse, having to explain it.

You people all need to get your heads outta your ideals and into the real world.
 
Professur said:
And how do you propose to defend those other rights without this one?



Cripes. Here I am, a monarchist, having to defend the Constitution of a bunch of rebel scum. Worse, having to explain it.

You people all need to get your heads outta your ideals and into the real world.
Prof...MrBishop is a Canuck. ;)
 
MrBishop said:
You're still alive and well. I wasn't asked to carry a casket about 7 years ago. If you'd had a gun...that might not have been the case. Don't prove me wrong...don't prove me right. I've known you for over 25 years now, and I neither want to attend your funeral, nor have to appear at a trial as a character witness to protect you from murder charges.

I'd do both, mind you...but I wouldn't enjoy either.


I know, Gato, I know.
 
AnomalousEntity said:
Dont believe me? Go to Hardware central and search "Necessary Evil" about "freedom of speech" when they were threatning to remove the OT forum!

(can you still search threads on HWC that were posted from OT).

Id love to dig up some of the Outlaw69 posts for a good laugh.
Are you NE? I don't think OT posts are still in there for search...
 
Professur said:
How about your bow? Is there any use for that outside of killing? I didn't think so. Yet you still own it, doncha? Wanna tell us all why?.
Sure...I use to to target shoot. Never hunted with it. Can't hide it on my person, can't carry it openly on the street and use it to stop crime. Don't keep it under my bed, or in my car "just in case"

Mind you...wouldn't I just love to see the look on the robber's face if I ever did pull it out and aim a 36" long arrow at his chest...damn... the piss would ruin my floor, but it might be worth it :)

12-inside-robin-hood2.jpg


HEY YOU...Get outta my house!!
 
I can get to my bow pretty damn quick, and yeah, it's almost more intimidating than a gun. Stare down an arrow sometime knowing that it won't just go through you, but likely stick you to the nearest wall.
 
PuterTutor said:
I can get to my bow pretty damn quick, and yeah, it's almost more intimidating than a gun. Stare down an arrow sometime knowing that it won't just go through you, but likely stick you to the nearest wall.

Ooh, you guys are nasty!... :eek:
 
MrBishop said:
Sure...I use to to target shoot. Never hunted with it. Can't hide it on my person, can't carry it openly on the street and use it to stop crime. Don't keep it under my bed, or in my car "just in case"



So, your lethal weapon is ok, because it's just for target shooting, but Chcr's weapons for defense aren't? Hmmm. Or someone else's 12 guage for shooting clay pidgeons either? Can't carry either of them concealed either, but you want to ban them. I can carry my drywall saw concealed, tho. Or a knife. Or even a neat little crossbow that I saw in your copy of Soldier of Forture magasine. All perfectly legal under your desired 'gun control'.

BTW, do you remember why you had that magasine? I do. As I recall, it was that you were considering ordering a sword. Funny, a sword kinda fits the description of things you wanted to ban, doesn't it? No other use than killing.
 
AlladinSane said:
Are you NE? I don't think OT posts are still in there for search...


Yeap thats me.

Funny thing, thats how I got the name Necessary Evil in the first place.

After a discussion about how I believed guns were a "Necessary Evil" that we will need to not only tolerate, but use as a tool to help maintain law and order in a society whos barbaric tendencies lurk just underneath the surface.
 
a society whos barbaric tendencies lurk just underneath the surface

Go into any bar or club on a friday or saturday night and I doubt they're lurking BENEATH the surface.
 
Professur said:
So, your lethal weapon is ok, because it's just for target shooting, but Chcr's weapons for defense aren't? Hmmm. Or someone else's 12 guage for shooting clay pidgeons either? Can't carry either of them concealed either, but you want to ban them. I can carry my drywall saw concealed, tho. Or a knife. Or even a neat little crossbow that I saw in your copy of Soldier of Forture magasine. All perfectly legal under your desired 'gun control'.

BTW, do you remember why you had that magasine? I do. As I recall, it was that you were considering ordering a sword. Funny, a sword kinda fits the description of things you wanted to ban, doesn't it? No other use than killing.

Good point Prof, even with all of Australia's gun control laws, we still had a school shooting last year, the kid DID use a crossbow, he only got one bolt off before some other guys knocked him out, but that one shot went straight through one girl, and into the leg of another.
 
Professur: So, your lethal weapon is ok, because it's just for target shooting, but Chcr's weapons for defense aren't? Hmmm. Or someone else's 12 guage for shooting clay pidgeons either? Can't carry either of them concealed either, but you want to ban them. I can carry my drywall saw concealed, tho. Or a knife. Or even a neat little crossbow that I saw in your copy of Soldier of Forture magasine. All perfectly legal under your desired 'gun control'.

BTW, do you remember why you had that magasine? I do. As I recall, it was that you were considering ordering a sword. Funny, a sword kinda fits the description of things you wanted to ban, doesn't it? No other use than killing.​
OK...was typing a reply yesterday, but got cut off....here we go again :)

I don't have an issue with Chcr and him keeping a shotgun in his home for defence of his home. I do have an issue with owning 3 firearms, keeping on on one's person all the time..hidden. With what seems like an itch to use it for the defence of strangers...just waiting for something to happen so that it can be used. That smacks of vigilantism...wether it fits the dictionary or not. Looking for trouble and keeping a gun on you, just in case either smacks of paranoia or Ramboism. It's not like the USA is a warzone.

Point #2: It wasn't soldier of fortune...it was Cavalry. SImilar...but not the point. I wasn't looking to but guns there...I actually bought a nice "great coat' from there...keeps me warm. Nice! As for the swords...they're aesthetic... they look nice on a wall, but they aren't sharp and aren't meant to be sharpened...most aren't made of the right mix of metals to keep an edge. The cross-bows and throwing-knives...I'd have to agree with you on. Then again...I bought neither, nor had any intention of doing so.
 
Professur said:
And how do you propose to defend those other rights without this one?

Cripes Prof...I can almost see the smile from here as you typed that. You can't possibly be saying that without civilians carrying guns around, that freedom of the press, freedom of speach, religion and the right to meet as a group would fail?

Damn...and I thought that it was the logic of them all that kept them afloat.

Oh shit!!?!?! Just realized something...Canada, the UK, Australia...none of them have the right to bear arms addendum to their constitutions...quick Prof...I'll meet you after work and we'll buy some guns...drive to the offices of The Gazette and stand outside...the freedom of the Press and Freedom of Speach are about to COLLAPSE!!! Riots! Fires! Hoardes of Locusts!!!

Ye Gods man... I hope that you're joking!
 
Guns also give you a nice warm fuzzy feeling of false security.

(I won't even metion freud)

You have a gun, some guy pulls a gun on you, welcome to the old west, except you do not have the skills and speed necessary to outdraw a gun pointed at you.

your dead.

same situation, you have no gun, you give the guy your $50, and go home and call the police.

The right to bare arms, roll up your sleaves

Serioulsy it's in the constitution, but the constitution is a little old, that right was put in there for other reasons, it was for defense of your country, not to play weekend warrior, and shoot the shadows at night.

Sure guns exist, and always will, make the laws tougher, limit calibers, no carrying on your person.

I read these pro NRA things, and it makes me think that the US is still the wild west.

"but if there are no guns there are Knifes, swords, etc."

It's a hell of a lot harder to kill someone when you have to stare in there eyes as they die, and they have a fighting chance.
 
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