Religion

[MrBishop]

I have no problem admitting that some of what religion has brought to the table is useful. But then a woman being raped and getting pregnant has also gained something joyful - you don't see many women begging to be raped so that they can experience the joy of having a baby. THe point is that religion helped us when we were too much in the dark to help ourselves. The time has come though that we can stand on our own two feet and make our own decisions. The simple truth is that a LOT of what religion brought has prevented, or at least slowed, the healthy development of our societies. Everything positive that it brought, we could have discovered for ourselves if we'd just given ourselves the chance. Now it's up to us to sort through the mess we've created, and realise that none of these "bonuses" are in fact entirely specific to religion.

I dissagree with your parallels, but for the sake of the arguement, I'll let it stand.

Religion used to be meant to help people find the right path. face the tough questions etc... Yes, we understand more about reality, and the nights aren't quite as dark now as they were before, but people still walk blindly. They don't know what they want to do with their lives, they don't know why they're doing what they do every day. Why bother going to work? Why bother supporting your offspring? Respecting your parents? etc...Religion, albeit theoretic when it comes to the explanation of the physical world, comes far closer to explaining how society works than the sciences do. IT also sets goals, which the sciences do not do. Science doesn't ask you to search for the answer..that's the doing of an inquisitive mind. Science writes the rules and hopefully tells us the possible from the impossible.

Religion, as an organisation, has brought about:

1) Currency
2) Banking
3) Literacy
4) The printing press
5) Art - by the thousands
6) Astronomy
7) Sponcered the sciences and world exploration
8) The study of languages
9) Laws
10) Higher education

I can go into detail on each whould any of you require it, but this is what I meant by not throwing out the baby with the bath-water. I'd like examples, if you have the time, on how religion has slowed or detracked the progression of society (Other than Holy-Wars, which I feel are more political grabs for power rhater than religious grabs for power)

 

[chcr]

Religion, as an organisation, has brought about :

1) Currency
2) Banking
3) Literacy
4) The printing press
5) Art - by the thousands
6) Astronomy
7) Sponcered the sciences and world exploration
8) The study of languages
9) Laws
10) Higher education

And none could have occurred without religion.

I also notice that when people are defending religion as an institution, they frequently leave out 1000 years of church enforced ignorance called the dark ages. What about that wonderfully enlightening inquisition?
I'm not really against religion as such, I just think it has outlived it's usefulness by about half a millenium.

 

[a13antichrist]

I'd like examples, if you have the time, on how religion has slowed or detracked the progression of society

Sexual Culture.
And before you say "big deal", think about it a bit. The benefits - for men as well as for women - are ENORMOUS. It influences Equality, Interaction, Relationships, Friendships.. anything you can think of, Sexual Repression fucked it up.

 

[MrBishop]

And none could have occurred without religion.

They mave had happened eventually, but religion did provide one thing which led to a great many advances which could not have happened without it's presence....unity accross great distances/accross borders, accross the sea, and above all...accross language barriers. In order to banking/money to have come into play, one unifying power would have to exist in order to secure payment based on notes of credit from one location to another. This would either mean religion, or a kingdam that stretched from one end to the other, holding a power over the populace and most likely based upon violence or the threat thereof. You only need look to the Roman era, around the advent of christianity as your example. A huge amount of land, under one ruler, ruled with an iron fist and much blood shed.

I also notice that when people are defending religion as an institution, they frequently leave out 1000 years of church enforced ignorance called the dark ages. What about that wonderfully enlightening inquisition?

The dark ages were caused because of famine and disease, as I recall. War played a part as well. Power plays by rulers and Bishops, not religious unity. You can look to Islamic fanaticism as an example of how one group of individuals in power can twist dogma into horrible things. The inquisition is another example of such. The Pope was losing land, power, influence and money becuase of his inability to unite the new lands under the church. Instead of initiating trade, he called on a holy war. A Jihad. Again...the work of a few people and not the institution.

I'm not really against religion as such, I just think it has outlived it's usefulness by about half a millenium.

And yet, it still manages to bring together people from all over the globe regardless of race, age, gender or social status under one roof at least once per week. I see it every week...people who would not normally associate having tea or coffee after service and discussing the weather, news, misic etc... It beats self-imposed isolation anyday.

 

[MrBishop]

Sexual Culture.
And before you say "big deal", think about it a bit. The benefits - for men as well as for women - are ENORMOUS. It influences Equality, Interaction, Relationships, Friendships.. anything you can think of, Sexual Repression fucked it up.

You're telling me that you feel that equality between the sexes could not have happened until people were able to have sex or think about it at will? It takes an increased libido to help people interract?

How exactly does what happens in the bedroom influence what happens in the streets and in business places?

I fail to see the point that you're trying to make.

The church was trying to limit sex to within that walls of marriage, in order to keep families together long enough to have kids. Sex outside of a solid bond (marriage) was frowned upon. It allowed people to support the children that they made. It lowered the chances of sexually transmitted diseases as well.

I'm lost...I feel as if I'm trying to fence in the dark. Please illuminate me or the specifics of your arguement.

 

[freako104]

They mave had happened eventually, but religion did provide one thing which led to a great many advances which could not have happened without it's presence....unity accross great distances/accross borders, accross the sea, and above all...accross language barriers. In order to banking/money to have come into play, one unifying power would have to exist in order to secure payment based on notes of credit from one location to another. This would either mean religion, or a kingdam that stretched from one end to the other, holding a power over the populace and most likely based upon violence or the threat thereof. You only need look to the Roman era, around the advent of christianity as your example. A huge amount of land, under one ruler, ruled with an iron fist and much blood shed.




The dark ages were caused because of famine and disease, as I recall. War played a part as well. Power plays by rulers and Bishops, not religious unity. You can look to Islamic fanaticism as an example of how one group of individuals in power can twist dogma into horrible things. The inquisition is another example of such. The Pope was losing land, power, influence and money becuase of his inability to unite the new lands under the church. Instead of initiating trade, he called on a holy war. A Jihad. Again...the work of a few people and not the institution.




And yet, it still manages to bring together people from all over the globe regardless of race, age, gender or social status under one roof at least once per week. I see it every week...people who would not normally associate having tea or coffee after service and discussing the weather, news, misic etc... It beats self-imposed isolation anyday.

bish in the dark ages there was famine yes as well as wars and whatnot but the Spanish Inquisition happened as well. did you forget about that? what about the fact that many of said wars were caused by religion.and also there are people w/out religion who dont isolate themselves. if you need proof I amone of the.

 

[ris]

as far as i know the dark ages are a uk specific period and are named as such in part because there are little in the way of written records and evidence [the era was one that is 'dark' to us].

other countries in europe do not have a dark age as they do have written records from that period.

it has very little to do with religion, and more to do with the changes following the roman empire leaving the isles and the arrival of the angles, saxons, jutes [etc] from europe.

 

[Raven]

as far as i know the dark ages are a uk specific period and are named as such in part because there are little in the way of written records and evidence [the era was one that is 'dark' to us].

other countries in europe do not have a dark age as they do have written records from that period.

it has very little to do with religion, and more to do with the changes following the roman empire leaving the isles and the arrival of the angles, saxons, jutes [etc] from europe.

Bang on ris

It was more to do with anarchy than religion. Like she said the country changed hands so many times that accurate records would have been very hard to keep therefore we in the UK are mostly in the dark about what happened.

 

[chcr]

And yet, it still manages to bring together people from all over the globe

Looks more to me like it's driving them apart.

Ane the (so-called, ris ) dark ages were more about a supression of the exchange of free ideas, which led to all the things you mention. There are problems, and there are symptoms. One leads to the other. The Anglican break from Rome was in part because of that.

 

[Raven]

If I may interject something into the discussion here, before you write your thesis

The version of the Koran doesn't play a part in it's interpretation by the people in teh middle-east, nor does it have anything to do with the formation of zealots and eventually terrorists within Muslim countries. What most people don't realize (and I'll take Afghanistan as a fine example), is that 80% of the population is illiterate. Those who are literate are also not the ones who'll go out and strap dynamite to their chests in order to become martyrs for th cause.

In Islam dogma, you pray several times per day, facing Mecca. Most of the people there say this by rote. They were verbally taught their prayers. They never read them.

With illiteracy running rampant, those who would hold the Koran in their hands while they lie, can create zealots easily. They say that the Koran demands martyrs, that Allah asks for people to kill for their religion, and none of their followers have the ability to go against thee false ideals/interpretation of the Holy Koran.

So..what you have are people who trust and believe their holy leaders, without question, and are trying to find their way to paradise/do Allah's will.

It's a shame really. A nation felled by illiteracy. A religion besmirched by the same hand.

I bow to your wisdom

 

[freako104]

as far as i know the dark ages are a uk specific period and are named as such in part because there are little in the way of written records and evidence [the era was one that is 'dark' to us].

other countries in europe do not have a dark age as they do have written records from that period.

it has very little to do with religion, and more to do with the changes following the roman empire leaving the isles and the arrival of the angles, saxons, jutes [etc] from europe.

at the time the Catholic Church held all the power

 

[ris]

when we talk about the dark ages we are talking about the period 200-800ad or so, and specifcally in the uk. the catholic church was still in its infancy and only became a genuine force in the 1100s to my knowledge. in fact following the collapse of the roman empire the uk returned to its previous pagan belief systems, bolstered by the immigration from the european mainland.
pockets of christianity remained in early monastic communities like lindisfarne but in the main pagan practices were carried out by the angles, saxons [etc] and the indigenous british population.

the christian faith effectively seperated at the demise of the roman empire into 2 strands, the rome based empire [later resurected as the holy roman empire under charlemagne] and the byzantine empire in the east [based in constantinople].
the schism between the east and west sects [orthodox and roman catholic] came to a head in 1054, when the roman catholic church was formed.

the exertion of papal doctrine and the acceptance of the pope as head of the church began around 500, and britain was only re-christianised in the mid 600s, and then by travelling missionaries, the conversion of nobles and setting of synods rather than papal armies. history more

during the period known as the dark ages the catholic or holy roman church held little sway in the uk, partly because the uk was a country [or feifdoms] of mainly pagan religion. also because the notions of the catholic papacy in its fearsome extraditions of violence toward heresy were much later, during the medieval period into the 1100s and beyond.

many of the inquistions the catholic church inflicted during these periods were not against pagans or those to be converted but toward heretics seen within the faith. rivalries and ideas formed within monastic orders infuriated the papacy and they used accusations of heresy to ensure compliance. groups such as the cathars were virtually exterminated for being heretics not by being pagan but for having formed ideas within christianity not to the papacy's liking.

 

[a13antichrist]

You're telling me that you feel that equality between the sexes could not have happened until people were able to have sex or think about it at will? It takes an increased libido to help people interract?

How exactly does what happens in the bedroom influence what happens in the streets and in business places?

I'm lost...I feel as if I'm trying to fence in the dark. Please illuminate me or the specifics of your arguement.

Religion made people believe that sex was evil. Or rather, it made people believe that sex is evil for women. So women learnt to be ashamed of their sexuality, and men learnt that any woman who was even the slightest bit open about sex was a witch (whore, witch, same thing) - in any case, an undeniably lower-class citizen.

At the same time, men are taught that to be a real man, you have to have lots of sex - even better if it's with lots of different women. Effectively this turned sex into a sport - one "side" trying to hide it, the other "side" trying as hard as they can to break their opponents. Not surprising then that so much of our sexual language are hunting metaphors..

You remember "When Harry Met Sally"? Men and women can't be friends, apparently. Well, in principle I disagree, vehemently. But, in practice, it will remain true as long as men are always thinking that they have to score more chicks, and women thinking they have to "preserve themselves" from the evil gender.
Further, religion taught women that sex was a personal act, while at the same time teaching men that it was a status one. Obviously, they're both wrong. Sex is physical. But it's not an act. It's an experience. A shared experience. Religion robbed society of any chance of this.

Whatsmore - and here's where your bedroom influencing street comes in - Men will NEVER see women truly as equals as long as women are achievements. Women will never be able to bring themselves equal to men while they continue to [be required to] protect "themselves" from men. Because Religion chose to target the most influential inter-personal experience, sexual equality is nothing but a myth.
Try pretending this is all about tennis and see how ridiculous it is.

True sexual equality doesn't just mean that women get paid the same as men. It means earning a lot of money matters just as much for women as it does for men. It means being a fat ugly fucker is just as damning for men as it is for women. It means that MEN don't look for women, hoping to "win the prize". It means PEOPLE look for each other.

And it means the end of Rape. And sexual harassment. And Street Prostitution. High-class call girls stick around. And it's a prestigious profession - for men as well.

But then, why on earth would we want that? Blankets over our heads is a much better way to go...

 

[Spirit]

I think MANKIND poses a threat to mankind. If there were no religions, there would be something else.

It's Power and Greed. Religion is just an umbrella term for those who don't want to take the responsibility for thier heinous acts. "It's my religious beliefs." Uh huh.

a13 - I am far from being a retard, honey.

 

[chcr]

I think MANKIND poses a threat to mankind. If there were no religions, there would be something else.

What an excellent point, Spirit. Thank you.

 

[a13antichrist]

I think MANKIND poses a threat to mankind. If there were no religions, there would be something else.

So they should have chosen something else a little less ridiculous then.

 

[Raven]

Yes but back then people (dont go digging up stuff on the greeks and romans please) were not as advanced. They didnt understand why a rock was a rock and how it came to be a rock. They didnt understand that the sun was a burning ball of gas and not a god smiling on them from heaven. THAT is why the belief systems were made up. They were a convenient explanation for why things around them were they way they were. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[AlladinSane]

You're trying to define religion as a system created to explain how the world came up. It wasn't. It was created to enforce natural laws that allowed humankind to live better in society. It was based on observation of the natural laws that command our universe. They were divine laws in the concept that they were made when the universe was created not that they were attributed by divinity themselves. If you look at the 10 commandments you can say they are bullshit or you can stop and think that those rules are a standard goal for well living. That does mean if you broke them you will burn in hell. It just means that if you do that you will probably attract problems to you. you are free to do things by your way, be it the easier or the harder path . Because they state in a rude manner the natural way of things. Though Moses couldn't explain that to an igonrant people. So in need to enforce those laws to allow organization of his people he had to divulge them as provided by God himself. They have to believe in them "it is because it is", bacause they reason was not developed enough to undertand the truth. What Christ made later was to explain those laws in more detailed ways and in an manner proper to the state of knowledge of the people of his age. That's why the God of Christ's era was diferent in behaviour of the one in the Jew prophets. Because the idea of a punisher God wasn't needed anymore.
What made religion a taboo is that people failed to study it with the eyes of reason. They only see the words as fabled(?) stories and don't stop to wonder what was behind that.
The basic natural moral laws doesn't change, but they can be best understood and applied as much as you grow in wisdom. The modern people don't accept more the "it is bacause it is" idea. Our reason refute that. And as long as current religious institutions persist on trying to keep it that way it will become more and more of a myth...

 

[Raven]

I agree with that too. I was on about why galileo was burned as a heretic for sayin the earth wasnt the centre of the universe...there is that aspect of religion too. Do what we say or else:

You shall not worship any other god for I am a vengeful god and shall strike you down

 

[a13antichrist]

Yes but back then people (dont go digging up stuff on the greeks and romans please) were not as advanced. They didnt understand why a rock was a rock and how it came to be a rock. They didnt understand that the sun was a burning ball of gas and not a god smiling on them from heaven. THAT is why the belief systems were made up. They were a convenient explanation for why things around them were they way they were. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Which is precisely what I object to. If the dumbarses don't know something, then they should just bloody well accept that they don't know and live with it. Making up "convenient explanations" because you don't have the right ones is THE worst intellectual crime in existence.