Socialism = Communism

[Gotnolegs]

Apparently Socialism is the same as Communism according to our resident political expert.

If that is the case does that mean that anyone right of centre is a facist?

What then does that make those people firmly in the middle of the political spectrum?

 

[BeardofPants]

.... Not free... apparently.

 

[Luis G]

Apparently Socialism is the same as Communism according to our resident political expert.

If that is the case does that mean that anyone right of centre is a facist?

What then does that make those people firmly in the middle of the political spectrum?

The premise is, if they don't agree with your ideas they're commies, period.

Anti war ..... COMMIE.
Let's ban guns...........COMMIE.
Catholism sucks..........COMMIE.
Pro Abortion/Pro Life or pro anyshit..........COMMIE
let's sign the kyoto protocol..............DON't YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT THIS ONE IT WILL TAKE AWAY ALL OUR FREEDOM AND BELOVED GUNS YOU COMMIE

 

[Gonz]

The premise is, if they don't agree with your ideas they're commies, period.

Let's ban guns...........COMMIE.
Pro Abortion..........COMMIE
let's sign the kyoto protocol..............DON't YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT THIS ONE IT WILL TAKE AWAY ALL OUR FREEDOM AND BELOVED GUNS YOU COMMIE

yep

 

[Gonz]

I suppose my equating socialism & communism was a bit over simplified of me. There are people here who actually feel socialism is not communism in disguise.

Communism

To each according to his needs, from each according to his ability.

Karl Marx
Critique of the Gotha Program

That is the metaphoric way of describing communism.

Let's look closer.

"From the moment all members of society, or at least the vast majority, have learned to administer the state themselves, have taken this work into their own hands, have organized control over the insignificant capitalist minority, over the gentry who wish to preserve their capitalist habits and over the workers who have been thoroughly corrupted by capitalism — from this moment the need for government of any kind begins to disappear altogether. The more complete the democracy, the nearer the moment when it becomes unnecessary. The more democratic the "state" which consists of the armed workers, and which is "no longer a state in the proper sense of the word", the more rapidly every form of state begins to wither away.

"Then the door will be thrown wide open for the transition from the first phase of communist society [Socialism] to its higher phase [Communism], and with it the complete withering away of the state.

Vladimir Lenin
The State and Revolution
Chpt 5. The higher phase of Communist Society

What'd he say???? Communism is socialism, said Lenin.

Communism is the positive supersession of private property as human self-estrangement [alienation], and hence the true appropriation of the human essence through and for man. It is the complete restoration of man to himself as a social — i.e., human — being, a restoration which has become conscious and which takes place within the entire wealth of previous periods of development. This communism, as fully developed naturalism, equals humanism, and as fully developed humanism equals naturalism; it is the genuine resolution of the conflict between man and nature, and between man and man, the true resolution of the conflict between existence and being, between objectification and self-affirmation, between freedom and necessity, between individual and species. It is the solution of the riddle of history and knows itself to be the solution.

Karl Marx
Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts

He wants us to be cavemen again?

Now, let's try Socialism

And the abolition of this state of things is called by the bourgeois, abolition of individuality and freedom! And rightly so. The abolition of bourgeois individuality, bourgeois independence, and bourgeois freedom is undoubtedly aimed at.

("These measures will, of course, be different in different countries. Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be generally applicable.")

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels
The Communist Manifesto
Chapter 1 and Chapter 2

Wow. What utopia. I never realized how different they are. Hey, now that I look at it, isn't that the Democrat platform?

 

[Gotnolegs]

I suppose my equating socialism & communism was a bit over simplified of me. There are people here who actually feel socialism is not communism in disguise.

You? Oversimplifying things? Never!

That is the metaphoric way of describing communism.

Personally I'd say it is the metaphorical way of describing Marxism but there you go...

Let's look closer.

OK!

What'd he say???? Communism is socialism, said Lenin.

Not quite. What Lenin is saying if you actually read the entire paragraph above is that to progress to what he describes as communism (which is quite different from Marx's original vision) you have to pass through the stage which he refers to as socialism. He does not say they are the same thing. If he was saying that then why would there be any need for a transition?

He wants us to be cavemen again?

No, he descibes a worldwide society where the natural resources of the planet are not raped and pillaged by a minority with the power to do so simply in order that they can live their blinkered lives in as high a degree of comfort as possible. It is a vision where mankind accepts the basic truism that all mankind is as deserving of the simple pleasures of life as the few that clutch onto them like a spoiled child with it's sweets.

Now, let's try Socialism

OK!

Hang on a minute!

That's the Communist manifesto! I'm not surprised you think that they are the same thing when you use communist definitions to describe both of them...

This is kinda radical even for me.

I just think it is a shame that the most powerful nation on earth is trying to force a culture that is based on greed and self-gratification on the rest of the world. To decry the entire works of people like Marx because of people like Brehznev and Andropov is foolishness of the highest order. But then I don't know why I expect anything less.

 

[Gonz]

To decry the entire works of people like Marx because of people like Brehznev and Andropov is foolishness of the highest order.

Brehznev was an amateur. He was nowhere the madman that Lenin was & killed about a quarter of a billion fewer people. He blinked when push came to shove (fortunately). But even the French kicked Marx out for being an imbecile. So historically Marxism, in any form, has proven to be futile. It won't work. It doesn't work. It can't work. It is flawed from the get go.

As far as the Communist Manifesto definition of socialism goes who the hell thought it up? Socialism is the first step towards communism. Socialism gets gobbled up by communism. Socialism is communism lite. Socialism is communism.

 

[Gotnolegs]

Brehznev was an amateur. He was nowhere the madman that Lenin was & killed about a quarter of a billion fewer people. He blinked when push came to shove (fortunately). But even the French kicked Marx out for being an imbecile. So historically Marxism, in any form, has proven to be futile. It won't work. It doesn't work. It can't work. It is flawed from the get go.

And we're all under no illusions about how much you respect the French.

As far as the Communist Manifesto definition of socialism goes who the hell thought it up? Socialism is the first step towards communism. Socialism gets gobbled up by communism. Socialism is communism lite. Socialism is communism.

I am as ever stunned by your (lack of) logic.

I am sure all the socialist governments across the world would love you to expand on that. That is like saying that not liking someone is the first step towards killing them and therefore they are one and the same thing.

Lets just agree to differ on this one. I'll carry on thinking that you're a blinkered, right wing, homophobic, fool and you can think of me as a left wing, commie, pinko.

 

[Gonz]

I am as ever stunned by your (lack of) logic.

I am, as always, amazed at your lack of insight. Here, I'll simplify it even further.

Main Entry: so·cial·ist
Pronunciation: 'sO-sh(&-)list
Function: noun
1 : one who advocates or practices socialism
2 capitalized : a member of a party or political group advocating socialism
- socialist adjective, often capitalized
- so·cial·is·tic /"sO-sh&-'lis-tik/ adjective
- so·cial·is·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: 'sO-sh&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Main Entry: com·mu·nism
Pronunciation: 'käm-y&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French communisme, from commun common
1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
2 capitalized a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the U.S.S.R. b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably d : communist systems collectively

They are principally the same. Even a crappy dictionary can see that. Taken the few additional steps those wonderful socialist governments you espouse are (or will be) full fledged communist countries. Where nobody has any rights & has nothing to look forward to since it is ILLEGAL to further yourself.

 

[Gotnolegs]

Now forgive me if I'm wrong here but the definition you just showed us (Merriam-Webster online?) states quite clearly that one of the definitions of Socialism (and I think it's worth restating the word ONE) is "a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism"

How is it then that by your conclusion Communism is a stage between Capitalism and Communism?

The only reason I can see for someone to think this is that they truly believe everyone who isn't a extreme right wing American is a Communist despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Now just for the sake of completeness we'll look at your definition of Communism. "a final stage of society in Marxist theory". Now again please feel free to cerrect me if I'm wrong but that says "a FINAL stage" (emphasis all mine) which in my mind is not the same thing as an intermediate or transitional stage.

Of course all this assumes that you agree with Marxist/Leninst theory, which I'm having trouble believing you do. So if you don't which definitions should we use?

 

[Gonz]

Damn you're short sighted.

In order to get to B, one must pass A. Since A is necessary to accomplish B, A becomes an active ingredient of B, thus A=B.

advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
advocating elimination of private property

the difference:
unequal distribution of goods
distributed equitably

 

[Gonz]

Here, let's make this easier.

Why don't you point out how they are NOT the same.

 

[Gotnolegs]

If one plus two = three

neither one, nor two can = three.

Simple enough for you?

 

[Gotnolegs]

Now lets turn this on its head.

If Socialism = Communism as you seem to claim surely Capitalism = Facism and therefore as I am living in a state reminiscent of Communist Russia, you are living in a state reminiscent of Nazi Germany.

Now I don't see it, do you?

 

[Gonz]

No comparison

Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J. W. Aldridge>
- fas·cist /-shist also -sist/ noun or adjective, often capitalized
- fas·cis·tic /fa-'shis-tik also -'sis-/ adjective, often capitalized
- fas·cis·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb, often capitalized

Main Entry: au·toc·ra·cy
Pronunciation: o-'tä-kr&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -cies
1 : the authority or rule of an autocrat
2 : government in which one person possesses unlimited power
3 : a community or state governed by autocracy

Main Entry: cap·i·tal·ism
Pronunciation: 'ka-p&-t&l-"iz-&m, 'kap-t&l-, British also k&-'pi-t&l-
Function: noun
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

This is our system

Main Entry: re·pub·lic
Pronunciation: ri-'p&-blik
Function: noun
Etymology: French république, from Middle French republique, from Latin respublica, from res thing, wealth + publica, feminine of publicus public -- more at REAL, PUBLIC
1 a (1) : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government b (1) : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government c : a usually specified republican government of a political unit <the French Fourth Republic>
2 : a body of persons freely engaged in a specified activity <the republic of letters>
3 : a constituent political and territorial unit of the former nations of Czechoslovakia, the U.S.S.R., or Yugoslavia

 

[Shadowfax]

Damn you're short sighted.

In order to get to B, one must pass A. Since A is necessary to accomplish B, A becomes an active ingredient of B, thus A=B.

there comes the lack of logic again...if A is a part of B, it's simply impossible that A equals B, because B is always A plus something

GNL - don't try to argue with gonz over this. it's simply impossible to convince him of him being wrong. he is never wrong. he uses facts; facts that can be altered in his own advantage of course.

in his world you're either with him, or a commie. of course that's not black and white thinking (or in the least a form of short-sightness) no, that's just the way things are for all-knowing Herr Gonz.

now, do you really want to argue about something like this, while you know he won't change his mind, ever?

 

[Gonz]

How can facts be altered? They are facts or they are false.

because B is always A plus something

Look, I'm not a math professor. I'm making a point.

So again I ask, how is socialism not the same. What are the differences? (besides what has already been pointed out in post 11)

 

[ris]

there comes the lack of logic again...if A is a part of B, it's simply impossible that A equals B, because B is always A plus something

damn mathemetician

you need to drive at 30mph to get to 70mph. 30mph is therefore an active part of achieving 70mph. therefore 30mph = 70mph.

i'll try it in court when i done for speeding, or mowing down some poor old dear, in a 30mph zone.

 

[Gonz]

Given enough time, the judge will buy it ris

 

[chcr]

Damn you're short sighted.

In order to get to B, one must pass A. Since A is necessary to accomplish B, A becomes an active ingredient of B, thus A=B.

Wrong. If you actually read what Marx says (and his only crime was that he was a short-sighted pie in the sky idealist, any one with half a brain could see that communism is an unworkable idea for a human society) you will see that communism requires socialism as part of it's process, not part of it's final composition. Socialism on the other hand in no way requires communism. In fact, Nazi Germany was a socialist state, and it was about as far from communism as it is possible to get, idealogically speaking. You have to actually read and understand the historical perspectinve, and I realize that it's much easier to jerk a knee and react.