superstition defeats science

2minkey

bootlicker
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2006/07/20/stemming_the_flow_of_science.html

so bound up in archaic ideologies as to be blind to the obvious practical aspects...

"The problem with this position is that hundreds of thousands of frozen embryos created by in vitro fertilisation treatment already exist, stored at US fertility clinics. The vast majority are waiting to be thrown away because the couples that produced them have the children that they wanted and do not want anyone else to raise their biological child."

maybe bush can make more decisions like this and cement our destiny as being left behind in biotech and medical technology.

how profoundly un-american.
 

Professur

Well-Known Member
superstition defeats science

'Fraid I don't see where superstition comes into it.


two-thirds of Americans supported further research.

I wonder .... if you could take the genetic code and generate pictures of what those 'embryos' would look like as 6 year old childern ...... how many of those two-thirds would step back in horror.
 

Luis G

<i><b>Problemator</b></i>
Staff member
Probably the same amount of those who would want to keep those embryos instead of throwing them away.
 

2minkey

bootlicker
yeah kudos to bush.

next he'll confuse everyone by banning all logging, after becoming convinced that trees are inhabited by spirits. about at the same level of rationality as the stem cell veto. hokey superstition wins! yay! maybe we can regress all the way back to the stone age.

okay gotholic, show me why adult stem cells are better. not my understanding, but i could be wrong on the specifics of that.
 

2minkey

bootlicker
Professur said:
I wonder .... if you could take the genetic code and generate pictures of what those 'embryos' would look like as 6 year old childern ...... how many of those two-thirds would step back in horror.

nah, they should just chuck them in the garbage pail, right where bush's veto puts 'em. that makes sense.
 

Gotholic

Well-Known Member
2minkey said:
okay gotholic, show me why adult stem cells are better. not my understanding, but i could be wrong on the specifics of that.

Here you go...

Adult Stem Cell Breakthrough Ignored
By the NewsMax.com Staff
For the story behind the story...


Monday, May 30, 2005 8:47 a.m. EDT

Scientists at Australia's Griffith University have engineered a breakthrough in the field of adult stem cell research that's so significant, say experts, that it could render the debate over embryonic stem cell research moot.

The results of the four-year research project showed that olfactory stem cells can be turned into heart cells, brain cells, nerve cells – indeed, almost any kind of cell in the body – without the problems of rejection or tumors forming, a common side effect with embryonic stem cells.

The poorly funded Griffith University team – which conducted its research with a mere $200,000 in grants – appears to have found a direct and non-controversial alternative to the use of stem cells derived from leftover embryos created during fertility treatment, reported the Australian newspaper.
"Our experiments have shown adult stem cells isolated from the olfactory mucosa have the ability to develop into many different cell types if they are given the right chemical or cellular environment," research team leader Alan Mackay-Sim told the paper.

Mackay-Sim's team of scientists managed to grow nerve cells, glial cells, liver cells, heart cells and muscle cells from cells harvested from the human nose.

The breakthrough, first announced two months ago, has been largely ignored by the U.S. media, which has focused on embryonic stem cell research as the only option to cure debilitating ailments like Hodgkin's, Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease.

As a result of the lopsided press coverage, California voters passed a $6 billion referendum to fund embryonic stem cell research last November, with similar programs proposed around the U.S. - though embryonic stem cell research has yet to show any significant medical progress.

In Australia, however, the medical community is excited over Mackay-Sim's adult stem cell breakthrough.

Brisbane neurologist Peter Silburn, a member of Australia's National Health and Medical Research Council, said the fact that researchers have been able to take adult stem cells from patients with Parkinson's disease and turn them into neurons shows great promise.

"We can now learn about the condition in ways we never could before," Silburn told the Australian.

Unlike embryonic stem cells, which reportedly can trigger tumors in one in five cases at the point of injection, adult stem cells grow in a controlled fashion and don't revert to their original tissue form.

Another significant benefit: Because adult stem cells can be harvested from the patient, there's no risk of the body rejecting them as alien, eliminating the need for immune system-suppressing drugs.

Still, two months after Australia's adult stem cell breakthrough was first announced, it has played little or no role in the ongoing U.S. debate over government funding for embryonic stem cell research.

"One of the complicating factors is that a lot of people have a lot of money tied up in embryonic stem cells," noted Australia's Catholic Archbishop George Pell, who helped secure funding for the Mackay-Sim project.

Source

Adult Stem Cell Research Breakthrough Produces Insulin for Diabetics

by Steven Ertelt

LifeNews.com Editor
July 10, 2006



Dublin, Ireland (LifeNews.com) -- A scientist in Ireland has made a major breakthrough in the field of adult stem cell research by producing insulin needed by diabetic patients from the stem cells from the umbilical cords of living babies. The result provides real hope for diabetics because the insulin from embryonic stem cells doesn't work as effectively and involves the destruction of human life.
Colin McGuckin, professor of regenerative medicine at the University of Newcastle, will soon present the findings to Catholic church leaders at a presentation at the Augustinian Institute in Rome.

“We have been able to produce insulin-secreting cells from cord blood, which is pretty much a first,” McGuckin told the London Times.

McGuckin said that insulin produced from adult stem cells will be more effective for those with diabetes.

“Although people have been able to do it from embryonic stem cells, they are not transplantable because they don't have a tissue match for the patient. Cord blood gives a big advantage,” he explained.

McGuckin also told the Times that the process is so effective that embryonic stem cells are not needed altogether.

“We are able to produce many different tissues from cord blood stem cells so we are really the first to rival embryonic stem cells,” he said.

While scientists must destroy human life to obtain embryonic stem cells, McGuckin says they're in ready supply from a newborn's umbilical cord and its blood and able to be find in specific matches for patients.

“Ultimately we will be able to achieve the same result from non-embryonic stem cells. Some 100 million children are born every year, that is an awful lot of stem cells if you want to find a tissue type that matches you," he said.

Meanwhile, embryonic stem cell transplants also have problems with cancers and tumors afterwards, but McGuckin said that's not the case with adult stem cells from the umbilical cord.

McGuckin also told the Times that a little bit of umbilical cord blood goes a long way. He indicated that storing the blood from just one baby born out of 5,000 would ensure enough adult stem cells for the entire population.

Source

More information.

2minkey said:
nah, they should just chuck them in the garbage pail, right where bush's veto puts 'em. that makes sense.

The fate of an embryo is up to the donor. The veto does not mean they will all be "thrown out".

But IVF shouldn't be legal at all. The success rate is low, which is why they create so many embryos that later end up staying frozen. There are too many kids waiting to be adopted.
 

Inkara1

Well-Known Member
2minkey said:
nah, they should just chuck them in the garbage pail, right where bush's veto puts 'em. that makes sense.

You DO know the veto doesn't outlaw it, right? No federal funding, but the private sector can research it all it wants.
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
Inkara1 said:
You DO know the veto doesn't outlaw it, right? No federal funding, but the private sector can research it all it wants.

And ruin his rhetoric...:D
 

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
Inkara1 said:
You DO know the veto doesn't outlaw it, right? No federal funding, but the private sector can research it all it wants.
What it does do it limit the stem cell lines available for research and stops federally funded research labs from sharing or receiving information about current research with labs which use new stem-cell lines. Sharing of research results, equipment and testing protocols is the most effective way of increasing the knowledge base about what can and cannot be accomplished with stem cells.

F'r instance...what the two scientists in Goth's posts have done is a great bit of research, as are the recent discoveries using hair follicles...but any research lab with GVT funding cannot use the information... they are effectively being forced to continue using embryonic stem cell lines in their research or face having to stop all research for lack of funding. Kinda defeatist, eh?
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
I didn't get past the first post.

As has been said multiple times...

ahem

la la la la

*cough cough*

IT IS PERFECTLY LEGAL FOR PRIVATE INDUSTRY TO DO R & D ON EMBRYOS.

It is not the place of the federal government to use public monies to finance private reasearch, especially on unguaranteed or unknown results.
 

2minkey

bootlicker
Gato_Solo said:
And ruin his rhetoric...:D

my rhetoric? fuck....

the pot and the kettle.

yeah yeah yeah when it's YOUR dogma it's cool but when somebody else takes a position it's juet rhetoric.

okay i get it i'll take your lead.

rhetoric = what i don't agree with.

anyway,

public funding issue decided by superstition = bad in mind of people not stuck in view of world hatched thousands of years ago in fucked-up desert environment.

gotholic - yeah, newsmax and lifenews. now that's objective BWAAAHAHAHA. jesus man that's about as believable as the weekly world news. cite some REAL sources, not the flipside of the CPUSA newsletter.
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
2minkey said:
my rhetoric? fuck....

Yep. Rhetoric. You do notice what you said next, right? I'll highlight it for ya, just so's you'll remember.

2minkey said:
yeah yeah yeah when it's YOUR dogma it's cool but when somebody else takes a position it's juet rhetoric.

Note the subtle slam on religion...which I never brought up.

2minkey said:
okay i get it i'll take your lead.

rhetoric = what i don't agree with.

:grinno: Rhetoric, in this case, is trying to rebuke government policy by sensationalizing something you don't like, even though its not the governments job to do it.

2minkey said:
anyway,

public funding issue decided by superstition = bad in mind of people not stuck in view of world hatched thousands of years ago in fucked-up desert environment.

Another swipe at religion. You do seem like a broken record on this...

2minkey said:
gotholic - yeah, newsmax and lifenews. now that's objective BWAAAHAHAHA. jesus man that's about as believable as the weekly world news. cite some REAL sources, not the flipside of the CPUSA newsletter.

If you don't agree with the source, fine. Ridiculing the source with no backup source of your own, however, shows a distinct lack of forethought. I have one question to ask, before you embarass yourself...Is what was in his sources true?
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
Rove is so ugly he can't even be a politician. He assists them. Why would anyone care what Karls philosophy is on stem cells?
 

chcr

Too cute for words
Gonz said:
Rove is so ugly he can't even be a politician. He assists them. Why would anyone care what Karls philosophy is on stem cells?
...and I don't. The simple fact is that the research will get done. It just won't get done in America. I know, nothing says that private industry can't do it but they won't. Too much risk with the possibility of no return. France will probably take the lead. Won't that put a knot in your...
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
chcr said:
Too much risk with the possibility of no return.

Makes perfect sense to me. I'd rather private industry do R&D, taking all the chances & earning all the glory & dividends than wasting even more taxpayer money. It's nothing but pure speculation.
 

chcr

Too cute for words
Gonz said:
Makes perfect sense to me. I'd rather private industry do R&D, taking all the chances & earning all the glory & dividends than wasting even more taxpayer money. It's nothing but pure speculation.
Which is exactly why private industry won't do it. :shrug:
 
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