You be the judge

randomJACKASS

randomJACKASS

Banned
Wow this one definitely is right up my alley and something I am passionate about isn't it? It is also something I have done a lot of study on, and it is all behind a sincere desire to see effective reform that reduces crime, and trying to remove revenge from the equation. That stuff about other countries with harsh laws and less crime is also bullshit. They have less reported and or investigated crime too, because they have less and much more corrupt police which blows that argument straight out of the water. Therefor the truth of what statistics prove or suggest in such countries is impossible to discern.

All this "if they did this then I think, or I'm sure this....", is total BS! Without some research to back it up (and it pretty much has to come from the US or Canadia since this is where we are talking about and where such science meets such a high degree of scrutiny), it is exactly the same as saying; "well if we did it the way I think it should be done then I wish the outcome would be what I wish for".
 
spike

spike

New Member
randomJACKASS said:
Possible, but not the case, and my theory on this is because alcoholics are far less likely to pre-plan safe transportation, being in denial and all (not in Egypt, good ol' 'merican style denial).
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Yeah, that may be the case or may not be. Just playing devil's advocate here but I do know plenty of people who drink heavily on a regular basis that know they're going to get messed up and plan for it. They know how to get home with public transportation while avoiding trouble because they've done it a million times. They are also more likely to be way better drivers under the influence than someone who doesn't drink regularly.

Some of them even have some bottles at home for the after party and don't necessarily get too shitfaced while they're out. "Alcoholic" is a slippery term and gets applied far too widely in the US.
 
randomJACKASS

randomJACKASS

Banned
Yeah that is the key is planning ahead, and unfortunately among alcoholics, usually they have to have burned themselves or come close before they do that. But give them a few drinks with no advance planning and it's a recipe for disaster!

But if anything that is the theme of everything I am trying to say here!

Some very wise mofo! said:
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!
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spike

spike

New Member
randomJACKASS said:
Yeah that is the key is planning ahead, and unfortunately among alcoholics, usually they have to have burned themselves or come close before they do that. But give them a few drinks with no advance planning and it's a recipe for disaster!

But if anything that is the theme of everything I am trying to say here!
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I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'm going to have to disagree with the generalization. At least with the way the term "alcoholic" is thrown around so loosely in the US. I spent some time in London working and it seemed like almost everyone I worked with drank fairly heavily on a regular basis after work and knew how to get themselves home safely.

I know plenty of people like that here but they're more likely to get the "alcoholic" badge. So I don't know exactly what "alcoholic" means. Throw any group a few drinks with no advance planning and the people that drink more often might handle it better or they might not cut themselves off as soon. I think it's more of an individual thing than a generalizing thing.

Some regular drinkers might think "ok, we're drinking. I'll probably get really fucked up. What's my exit strategy?" while others will simply be thinking "where's the next drink?"

Less experienced drinkers may be more likely to be taken by surprise and find themselves on the highway unable to stay between the lines.
 
spike

spike

New Member
It does, extremely. I realize that grouping massive numbers of people into the same person is easier but it doesn't work and isn't logical.
 
Winky

Winky

Well-Known Member
Defining the affliction of alcoholism is easily defined.
I don’t understand why you’d find this otherwise.
 
randomJACKASS

randomJACKASS

Banned
Well I am not interested in debating the finer points of alcoholism here, and regardless who gets in a wreck because of alcohol, the crime is not any different, but from a fix it or preventative line of reasoning it makes sense to treat alcoholism in addition to the criminal conviction and corrections system.

Sure a drunk or "alcoholic" who has developed a tolerance may be able to drive better with a much higher BAC than an infrequent drinker, but if anything the usually err on the side of over confidence and I think are more likely to cause a problem on the road. It doesn't matter really, if you have been drinking, no matter if you can pass a field sobriety test and blow under the limit either way in my mind it doesn't really mitigate any of your responsibility in the event of a drinking and driving accident situation. Essentially an alcoholic is someone whose life is effected negatively by their drinking and who has difficulty stopping drinking. American society's standards clearly are all fucked up in this area. Why is it OK to drink a lot but even casual use of pot is largely considered a worse problem, when clearly being stoned is far less of an impairment issue than alcohol and is linked to far less criminal activity save for the cultivation sale and possession of it itself? Throw prescription drugs in there and I'd be willing to bet that is a worse problem still but much less understood by society at large, and probably very much underestimated in the magnitude and severity of the issue. Perhaps just for the simple fact it is a lot harder to tell who is abusing or impaired from prescription drug use or abuse.

Again, my whole position is for us too look for solutions that reduce and prevent to problem, not just the feel good revenge most of America seems to love. There are many great things about this country but as I see it, one of the worst thing about it is our whole criminal justice mess. Clearly (if you look at actual credible research) other nations have much more effective systems in place, and in almost every such case a lot more focus is placed on rehabilitation than punishment, yet we are like a dog with a bone who won't let it go come hell or high water.
 
MrBishop

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
Altron said:
At least kill the first guy.

"Execution is too expensive"? Really? I mean, really? It costs tens of thousands of dollars a year to feed, house, and clothe prisoners. This asshole is looking at what, decades in prison? So we can piss away more money keeping him alive? Electric chair might not be eco-friendly (unless it's solar-powered) but you can just hit him in the head a couple of times with a brick or something, and do it for free.
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One bullet...and as a bonus, you can charge the family the price of the bullet.
 
MrBishop

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
1) Veh. manslaughter, no concurrent terms. Post-jail AA mandatory for equal time as jail time. Loss of drivers lic. (life). Add punitive monetary fine to cover all funerals and legal fees.
 
spike

spike

New Member
That works for me. But I've also heard people that have a couple glasses of wine every night classified as alcoholics.
 
ResearchMonkey

ResearchMonkey

Well-Known Member
spike said:
That works for me. But I've also heard people that have a couple glasses of wine every night classified as alcoholics.
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They could be in a technical manner. One does not need to be 'out of control' to be an alcoholic, there is a dependence factor involved in the assessment. but if doesn't present a problem why worry about it.

Also some hard core alcoholics might only drink every few weeks, three days at a time.
 
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