Ancient Manuscript Suggests Jesus Asked Judas to Betray Him

rrfield said:
either a) im naive or b) you are a cynical bastard/pissed-off former catholic.

or a little of A and a lot of B.
I'm forced to admit that B is largely true. I don't really consider myself a former catholic anymore though. I've been an atheist a lot longer than I was a catholic (if I ever really was). The point is that although their relevance in the US has waned, they are still one of the driving political forces in a lot of the rest of the world. Ask Luis. They guard that power quite jealously as well.
 
Calling me a cynical bastard wouldn't be the first time. And compliments will get you nowhere.

Seriously, the church has been a political animal for millenia. That sort of thing is ingrained in an institution that old, it doesn't change. Politics is preached from damn near every pulpit in America every Sunday. Shit, man, in poorer neighboorhoods, they're told whom to vote for on Sunday morning.

Learn your history, and take a really good look around.
 
I know the history. I stand by my first statement.

The church is interested in souls, not politics.

It may look like politics to you, but you are wrong. Call me naive, doesn't bother me. I know the Catholic Church's actions have been wrong in the past, but the Catholic Church's faith has never waivered. Every week we acknowledge this in the Creed. (look not on our sins but on the faith of your church).

No one is going to have their minds changed here anyway, so I'll just leave it at that.
 
paul_valaru said:
There is no proof that any of the books where written around the time of christs death, and "based off" usually means artistic liberties where taken.

You are right. There is no concrete proof when the four Gospels were written. However, most scholars agree the approximate time of when they were written.

Matthew: 70-100
Mark: 68-73
Luke: 80-100
John: 90-110

This is much sooner than 200 years after the Ressurection.

paul_valaru said:
Of course they would debate this, because it is wrong. Christianity started as an sect of Judism, many diffrent churchs sprang from it, if anything the Roman Catholic Church is a johnny come lately, Peter was not a Pope, he was the rock to build his church on, the Roman Catholic Church used that phrase to try to make it seem they where the only and correct church to beleive in. If anything the phrase meant he was supposed to spread the word.

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven’" (Matthew. 16:18-19).

Keys were a hallmark of authority in ancient times. To be given the key to a city is to give free access and authority over the city. The early Christian recognized the authority of Peter.

Christ set up one Church with one faith (Ephesians. 4:4–5). Peter was the first pope. The Catholic faith and its leaders, the bishops, can be traced back through time, all the way back to the apostles. This shows the pope is the lineal successor to Peter, who was the first bishop of Rome.

John Henry Newman actually traced the Catholic faith and its leaders from the ninteenth century to the New Testament times. His book is called An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine. By the way, Newman was not Catholic when he started his book. He was converted to the Catholic faith as the book was done.

paul_valaru said:
Gnosticism is fairly straight forward, though no longer followed. It was repressed in the early years of the churchs, along with many many other sects.

They have some basic tenets. Though, there are differences.

paul_valaru said:
Fine not all, though they sure did try wiping out all christian compitition (note: catholic = christian christian does not equal catholic) and all other religions too.

Your assertion is false. The first Christian to be killed for being a heretic was during the year 385. Before then, the Gnostics were just excommunicated - not "wiped" out.

Most killings were done by civil authorities. The Catholic Church never had any doctrine that supported killing the heretics. There were some corrupt Church leaders who endorse such killings. But that is not an excuse to condemn the Catholic Church.
 
Most killings were done by civil authorities. The Catholic Church never had any doctrine that supported killing the heretics. There were some corrupt Church leaders who endorse such killings. But that is not an excuse to condemn the Catholic Church.

The Pope agreed to allow the Inquisition in 1481, and those arrested and given four choices. They could confess, pay a penalty, endure public torture, or be burned at the stake.


You are right. There is no concrete proof when the four Gospels were written. However, most scholars agree the approximate time of when they were written.

Matthew: 70-100
Mark: 68-73
Luke: 80-100
John: 90-110

This is much sooner than 200 years after the Ressurection.

Distortions of the Roman Catholic Church
Just as the works of the Old Testament would not have survived without being copied and recopied, so too did the survival of the New Testament depend on the work of generation after generation of scribal copyists. But its survival also depended on the practice of making and distributing duplicate manuscripts, because, despite the reverence of early Christians for the written Gospel, decay was not the only threat to its survival. War, accident, persecution, factionalism, and the suppression of heresies all played their role in obliterating the original texts (or autographs) as well as the early copies which were made from them.
Consequently, virtually nothing remains from the early Christian period. The original texts of the New Testament simply no longer exist. The Gospels of Luke, Matthew, Mark, and John only exist as decaying copies of copies -- which themselves may have been heavily edited or marred with accidental errors. What's more, even these early copies are fragmented and few. It should be noted that only 35 of these copies date back to before 400 A.D., and amazingly only 80 manuscript copies date before 800 A.D.

The two earliest fragments of John's gospel, for example, are copies transcribed in 200 A.D. -- at least 100 years after the death of the Apostle himself. Not surprisingly, this fact has caused many to speculate whether the manuscript really represents the words of John at all. Meanwhile, mainstream historians, linguists, and religious scholars agree that the Gospel of John, as we know it, differs markedly from the Gospel of John that was available to the early Christian Church.

Take, for example, the popular story (John 7:53-8:11) in which Jesus saves a woman from being stoned as an adulteress. It is from this passage that Christianity draws the oft-paraphrased advice, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

Interestingly enough, this entire story (or periscope) is missing from the earliest version of John. It is also missing from early Latin translations of the text, missing from older versions used in the Holy Land and in fact, according to the 12th century Byzantine scholar Euthymius Zigabenus (the earliest church father to comment on the passage), accurate copies of the Gospel of John do not and should not contain it. Furthermore, if one blocks out the entire little story, John 7:52 flows just fine into John 8:12, lending further credence to the idea that the passage was simply inserted after the fact. Who inserted it, and why, remains a mystery.

In yet another example, in all versions of John (9:35) transcribed after the 5th century one can read the following passage: "Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" [emphasis added]. But if one compares this version to papyri and codices transcribed before the 5th century, one finds this rendering: "Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, Do you believe in the Son of man?" [emphasis added].

Again, the point of these examples is to illustrate the fact that someone, at some point, made significant changes to the Gospel of John. Perhaps in some cases it was an unintended error (it was quite common for scribes to lose their place while copying manuscripts and "paste" a paragraph in where it didn’t belong), or perhaps it was someone's attempt to restore to the record a piece of wisdom that had been lost with the suppression of some other Gospel manuscript. We don't know. But that the phrase "Son of man" could have been replaced by "Son of God" by accident -- and would then be perpetuated unchallenged -- seems ludicrous, given the significance of the wording.

What we do know is that this kind of discrepancy or tampering is not unique to the Gospel of John. As mentioned earlier, we cannot know what the original texts said with any certainty. The original manuscripts are apparently gone. But as we compare the early copies, and compare them also with later versions handed down through other branches of the Church (such as Eastern Orthodox, Coptic Christian, etc.), we do notice all kinds of variations and discrepancies.

In total there are 300,000 discrepancies in the New Testament amongst various early manuscript versions. Significantly, the greatest amount of variation (and revision) is found in the most significant portions of the New Testament manuscripts -- that is, within those parts that most determine official Church doctrine: the birth and death of Christ, the usage of the Eucharist, his time in the garden of Gethsemane, his utterings on the cross, his resurrection, and his ascension to heaven.

The natural question is: how did these discrepancies occur? Naturally some of it must be, as mentioned earlier, scribal error, simple miscopying. But the fact that the bulk of it occurs where it matters most -- where it would have most impacted the politics and policies of the Church -- is terribly suspicious. Are we supposed to believe this is all mere coincidence?

Considering that the Roman Catholic Church (under whose watch most of these discrepancies crept in) is about as forthcoming with such information as the Cold War Kremlin, it may be some time before we get the straight scoop on how and why these alterations occurred and what in fact it means for the validity of Church dogma. In the meantime, it is commonly acknowledged fact that the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (i.e. the four Gospels accepted as authentic by the Church) bear all the signs of secondary texts. That is, each one appears to have been pieced together from other, earlier, works, perhaps both written and oral.

And while it is often generously granted that these texts may have been put together from materials written or dictated directly by the Apostles, there is in fact no real proof of this. Additionally, the Church's claims that Hebrews was written by Paul and Revelations by John -- claims made to beef up the authority of the dead Apostles and their successors in authority, the popes and bishops -- are not warranted by the evidence. In fact, historians acknowledge that it is not known who wrote these texts.


Or simply, I will not beleive anything the roman catholic church puts out as being real history without a large grain of salt, and back up from hisorians and scientists with no ties the the roman catholic church.
 
paul_valaru said:
The Pope agreed to allow the Inquisition in 1481, and those arrested and given four choices. They could confess, pay a penalty, endure public torture, or be burned at the stake.

There were some wicked popes. But when a carpenter builds his house and finds some faulty nails, does he then lose faith in all the nails and not continue to build his house? It is not just to judge the actions of a few and place that same judgement upon the whole Church. Do not forget that Hitler used the same tactic by using some examples of corrupt Jews to further his agenda.

There were many Inquisitions. The worse one was the Spanish Inquisition. The main job was to clear the good names of those who were accused of being heretics. It was state policy to kill heretics.

paul_valaru said:
Distortions of the Roman Catholic Church
Just as the works of the Old Testament would not have survived without being copied and recopied, so too did the survival of the New Testament depend on the work of generation after generation of scribal copyists. But its survival also depended on the practice of making and distributing duplicate manuscripts, because, despite the reverence of early Christians for the written Gospel, decay was not the only threat to its survival. War, accident, persecution, factionalism, and the suppression of heresies all played their role in obliterating the original texts (or autographs) as well as the early copies which were made from them.
Consequently, virtually nothing remains from the early Christian period. The original texts of the New Testament simply no longer exist. The Gospels of Luke, Matthew, Mark, and John only exist as decaying copies of copies -- which themselves may have been heavily edited or marred with accidental errors. What's more, even these early copies are fragmented and few. It should be noted that only 35 of these copies date back to before 400 A.D., and amazingly only 80 manuscript copies date before 800 A.D.

The two earliest fragments of John's gospel, for example, are copies transcribed in 200 A.D. -- at least 100 years after the death of the Apostle himself. Not surprisingly, this fact has caused many to speculate whether the manuscript really represents the words of John at all. Meanwhile, mainstream historians, linguists, and religious scholars agree that the Gospel of John, as we know it, differs markedly from the Gospel of John that was available to the early Christian Church.

Take, for example, the popular story (John 7:53-8:11) in which Jesus saves a woman from being stoned as an adulteress. It is from this passage that Christianity draws the oft-paraphrased advice, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

Interestingly enough, this entire story (or periscope) is missing from the earliest version of John. It is also missing from early Latin translations of the text, missing from older versions used in the Holy Land and in fact, according to the 12th century Byzantine scholar Euthymius Zigabenus (the earliest church father to comment on the passage), accurate copies of the Gospel of John do not and should not contain it. Furthermore, if one blocks out the entire little story, John 7:52 flows just fine into John 8:12, lending further credence to the idea that the passage was simply inserted after the fact. Who inserted it, and why, remains a mystery.

In yet another example, in all versions of John (9:35) transcribed after the 5th century one can read the following passage: "Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" [emphasis added]. But if one compares this version to papyri and codices transcribed before the 5th century, one finds this rendering: "Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, Do you believe in the Son of man?" [emphasis added].

Again, the point of these examples is to illustrate the fact that someone, at some point, made significant changes to the Gospel of John. Perhaps in some cases it was an unintended error (it was quite common for scribes to lose their place while copying manuscripts and "paste" a paragraph in where it didn’t belong), or perhaps it was someone's attempt to restore to the record a piece of wisdom that had been lost with the suppression of some other Gospel manuscript. We don't know. But that the phrase "Son of man" could have been replaced by "Son of God" by accident -- and would then be perpetuated unchallenged -- seems ludicrous, given the significance of the wording.

What we do know is that this kind of discrepancy or tampering is not unique to the Gospel of John. As mentioned earlier, we cannot know what the original texts said with any certainty. The original manuscripts are apparently gone. But as we compare the early copies, and compare them also with later versions handed down through other branches of the Church (such as Eastern Orthodox, Coptic Christian, etc.), we do notice all kinds of variations and discrepancies.

In total there are 300,000 discrepancies in the New Testament amongst various early manuscript versions. Significantly, the greatest amount of variation (and revision) is found in the most significant portions of the New Testament manuscripts -- that is, within those parts that most determine official Church doctrine: the birth and death of Christ, the usage of the Eucharist, his time in the garden of Gethsemane, his utterings on the cross, his resurrection, and his ascension to heaven.

The natural question is: how did these discrepancies occur? Naturally some of it must be, as mentioned earlier, scribal error, simple miscopying. But the fact that the bulk of it occurs where it matters most -- where it would have most impacted the politics and policies of the Church -- is terribly suspicious. Are we supposed to believe this is all mere coincidence?

Considering that the Roman Catholic Church (under whose watch most of these discrepancies crept in) is about as forthcoming with such information as the Cold War Kremlin, it may be some time before we get the straight scoop on how and why these alterations occurred and what in fact it means for the validity of Church dogma. In the meantime, it is commonly acknowledged fact that the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (i.e. the four Gospels accepted as authentic by the Church) bear all the signs of secondary texts. That is, each one appears to have been pieced together from other, earlier, works, perhaps both written and oral.

And while it is often generously granted that these texts may have been put together from materials written or dictated directly by the Apostles, there is in fact no real proof of this. Additionally, the Church's claims that Hebrews was written by Paul and Revelations by John -- claims made to beef up the authority of the dead Apostles and their successors in authority, the popes and bishops -- are not warranted by the evidence. In fact, historians acknowledge that it is not known who wrote these texts.

You really should source your quote. That site provided no sources for this information. It is certianly not objective. A casual look around that site will easily reveal bias and slander views the site operators have on Christianity (which is most likely why you might of chose to not provide the source of your quote). To use rotten.com degrades your crediblity.

paul_valaru said:
Or simply, I will not beleive anything the roman catholic church puts out as being real history without a large grain of salt, and back up from hisorians and scientists with no ties the the roman catholic church.

Most certainly, a website that shows a picture of Jesus getting head from a child is a website to be taken its views of Christianity with a small grain of salt.

Gospel of Matthew:

VI. DATE AND PLACE OF COMPOSITION

Ancient ecclesiastical writers are at variance as to the date of the composition of the First Gospel. Eusebius (in his Chronicle), Theophylact, and Euthymius Zigabenus are of opinion that the Gospel of Matthew was written eight years, and Nicephorus Callistus fifteen years, after Christ's Ascension--i. e. about A.D. 38-45. According to Eusebius, Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew when he left Palestine. Now, following a certain tradition (admittedly not too reliable), the Apostles separated twelve years after the Ascension, hence the Gospel would have been written about the year 40-42, but following Eusebius (Hist. eccl., III, v, 2), it is possible to fix the definitive departure of the Apostles about the year 60, in which event the writing of the Gospel would have taken place about the year 60-68. St Irenæus is somewhat more exact concerning the date of the First Gospel, as he says: "Matthew produced his Gospel when Peter and Paul were evangelizing and founding the Church of Rome, consequently about the years 64-67." However, this text presents difficulties of interpretation which render its meaning uncertain and prevent us from deducing any positive conclusion.

In our day opinion is rather divided. Catholic critics, in general, favour the years 40-45, although some (e.g. Patrizi) go back to 36-39 or (e.g. Aberle) to 37. Belser assigns 41-42; Conély, 40-50; Schafer, 50-51; Hug, Reuschl, Schanz, and Rose, 60-67. This last opinion is founded on the combined testimonies of St. Irenæus and Eusebius, and on the remark inserted parenthetically in the discourse of Jesus in chapter xxiv, 15: "When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place": here the author interrupts the sentence and invites the reader to take heed of what follows, viz.: "Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains." As there would have been no occasion for a like warning had the destruction of Jerusalem already taken place, Matthew must have written his Gospel before the year 70 (about 65-70 according to Batiffol). Protestant and Liberalistic critics also are greatly at variance as regards the time of the composition of the First Gospel. Zahn sets the date about 61-66, and Godet about 60-66; Keim, Meyer, Holtzmann (in his earlier writings), Beyschlag, and Maclean, before 70, Bartiet about 68-69; W. Allen and Plummer, about 65-75; Hilgenfeld and Holtzmann (in his later writings), soon after 70; B. Weiss and Harnack, about 70-75; Renan, later than 85, Réville, between 69 and 96, Jülicher, in 81-96, Montefiore, about 90-100, Volkmar, in 110; Baur, about 130-34. The following are some of the arguments advanced to prove that the First Gospel was written several years after the Fall of Jerusalem. When Jesus prophesies to His Apostles that they will be delivered up to the councils, scourged in the synagogues, brought before governors and kings for His sake; that they will give testimony of Him, will for Him be hated and driven from city to city (x, 17-23) and when He commissions them to teach all nations and make them His disciples, His words intimate, it is claimed, the lapse of many years, the establishment of the Christian Church in distant parts, and its cruel persecution by the Jews and even by Roman emperors and governors. Moreover, certain sayings of the Lord--such as: "Thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church" (xi, 18), "If he [thy brother] will not hear them: tell the Church" (xviii, 10)--carry us to a time when the Christian Church was already constituted, a time that could not have been much earlier than the year 100. The fact is, that what was predicted by Our Lord, when He announced future events and established the charter and foundations of His Church, is converted into reality and made coexistent with the writing of the First Gospel. Hence, to give these arguments a probatory value it would be necessary either to deny Christ's knowledge of the future or to maintain that the teachings embodied in the First Gospel were not authentic.

Source


Gospel of Mark:

V. PLACE AND DATE OF COMPOSITION

It is certain that the Gospel was written at Rome. St. Chrysostom indeed speaks of Egypt as the place of composition ("Hom. I. on Matt.", 3), but he probably misunderstood Eusebius, who says that Mark was sent to Egypt and preached there the Gospel which he had written ("Hist. Eccl.", II, xvi). Some few modern scholars have adopted the suggestion of Richard Simon ("Hist. crit. du Texte du N.T.", 1689, 107) that the Evangelist may have published both a Roman and an Egyptian edition of the Gospel. But this view is sufficiently refuted by the silence of the Alexandrian Fathers. Other opinions, such as that the Gospel was written in Asia Minor or at Syrian Antioch, are not deserving of any consideration.

The date of the Gospel is uncertain. The external evidence is not decisive, and the internal does not assist very much. St. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Eusebius, Tertullian, and St. Jerome signify that it was written before St. Peter's death. The subscription of many of the later unical and cursive manuscripts states that it was written in the tenth or twelfth year after the Ascension (A.D. 38-40). The "Paschal Chronicle" assigns it to A.D. 40, and the "Chronicle" of Eusebius to the third year of Claudius (A.D. 43). Possibly these early dates may be only a deduction from the tradition that Peter came to Rome in the second year of Claudius, A.D. 42 (cf. Euseb., "Hist. Eccl.", II, xiv; Jer., "De Vir. Ill.", i). St. Irenæus, on the other hand, seems to place the composition of the Gospel after the death of Peter and Paul (meta de ten touton exodon--"Adv. Hær.", III, i). Papias, too, asserting that Mark wrote according to his recollection of Peter's discourses, has been taken to imply that Peter was dead. This, however, does not necessarily follow from the words of Papias, for Peter might have been absent from Rome. Besides, Clement of Alexandria (Euseb., "Hist. Eccl.", VI, xiv) seems to say that Peter was alive and in Rome at the time Mark wrote, though he gave the Evangelist no help in his work. There is left, therefore, the testimony of St. Irenæus against that of all the other early witnesses; and it is an interesting fact that most present-day Rationalist and Protestant scholars prefer to follow Irenæus and accept the later date for Mark's Gospel, though they reject almost unanimously the saint's testimony, given in the same context and supported by all antiquity, in favour of the priority of Matthew's Gospel to Mark's. Various attempts have been made to explain the passage in Irenæus so as to bring him into agreement with the other early authorities (see, e.g. Cornely, "Introd.", iii, 76-78; Patrizi, "De Evang.", I, 38), but to the present writer they appear unsuccessful if the existing text must be regarded as correct. It seems much more reasonable, however, to believe that Irenæus was mistaken than that all the other authorities are in error, and hence the external evidence would show that Mark wrote before Peter's death (A.D. 64 or 67).

From internal evidence we can conclude that the Gospel was written before A.D. 70, for there is no allusion to the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem, such as might naturally be expected in view of the prediction in xiii, 2, if that event had already taken place. On the other hand, if xvi, 20: "But they going forth preached everywhere", be from St. Mark's pen, the Gospel cannot well have been written before the close of the first Apostolic journey of St. Paul (A.D. 49 or 50), for it is seen from Acts, xiv, 26; xv, 3, that only then had the conversion of the Gentiles begun on any large scale. Of course it is possible that previous to this the Apostles had preached far and wide among the dispersed Jews, but, on the whole, it seems more probable that the last verse of the Gospel, occurring in a work intended for European readers, cannot have been written before St. Paul's arrival in Europe (A.D. 50-51). Taking the external and internal evidence together, we may conclude that the date of the Gospel probably lies somewhere between A.D. 50 and 67.

Source

Gospel of Luke:

V. SOURCES OF THE GOSPEL; SYNOPTIC PROBLEM

The best information as to his sources is given by St. Luke, in the beginning of his Gospel. As many had written accounts as they heard them from "eyewitnesses and ministers of the word", it seemed good to him also, having diligently attained to all things from the beginning, to write an ordered narrative. He had two sources of information, then, eyewitnesses (including Apostles) and written documents taken down from the words of eyewitnesses. The accuracy of these documents he was in a position to test by his knowledge of the character of the writers, and by comparing them with the actual words of the Apostles and other eyewitnesses.

That he used written documents seems evident on comparing his Gospel with the other two Synoptic Gospels, Matthew and Mark. All three frequently agree even in minute details, but in other respects there is often a remarkable divergence, and to explain these phenomena is the Synoptic Problem. St. Matthew and St. Luke alone give an account of the infancy of Christ, both accounts are independent. But when they begin the public preaching they describe it in the same way, here agreeing with St. Mark. When St. Mark ends, the two others again diverge. They agree in the main both in matter and arrangement within the limits covered by St. Mark, whose order they generally follow. Frequently all agree in the order of the narrative, but, where two agree, Mark and Luke agree against the order of Matthew, or Mark and Matthew agree against the order of Luke; Mark is always in the majority, and it is not proved that the other two ever agree against the order followed by him. Within the limits of the ground covered by St. Mark, the two other Gospels have several sections in common not found in St. Mark, consisting for the most part of discourses, and there is a closer resemblance between them than between any two Gospels where the three go over the same ground. The whole of St. Mark is practically contained in the other two. St. Matthew and St. Luke have large sections peculiar to themselves, such as the different accounts of the infancy, and the journeys towards Jerusalem in St. Luke. The parallel records have remarkable verbal coincidences. Sometimes the Greek phrases are identical, sometimes but slightly different, and again more divergent. There are various theories to explain the fact of the matter and language common to the Evangelists. Some hold that it is due to the oral teaching of the Apostles, which soon became stereotyped from constant repetition. Others hold that it is due to written sources, taken down from such teaching. Others, again, strongly maintain that Matthew and Luke used Mark or a written source extremely like it. In that case, we have evidence how very closely they kept to the original. The agreement between the discourses given by St. Luke and St. Matthew is accounted for, by some authors, by saying that both embodied the discourses of Christ that had been collected and originally written in Aramaic by St. Matthew. The long narratives of St. Luke not found in these two documents are, it is said, accounted for by his employment of what he knew to be other reliable sources, either oral or written. (The question is concisely but clearly stated by Peake "A Critical Introduction to the New Testament", London, 1909, 101. Several other works on the subject are given in the literature at the end of this article.)

APPENDIX: BIBLICAL COMMISSION DECISIONS

It is according to most ancient and constant tradition that after Matthew, Mark wrote his Gospel second and Luke third; though it may be held that the second and third Gospels were composed before the Greek version of the first Gospel. It is not lawful to put the date of the Gospels of Mark and Luke as late as the destruction of Jerusalem or after the siege had begun. The Gospel of Luke preceded his Acts of the Apostles, and was therefore composed before the end of the Roman imprisonment, when the Acts was finished (Acts 28:30-31). In view of Tradition and of internal evidence it cannot be doubted that Mark wrote according to the preaching of Peter, and Luke according to that of Paul, and that both had at their disposal other trustworthy sources, oral or written.

Source

Gospel of John:

IV. CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE COMPOSITION

Passing over the intimate circumstances with which early legend has clothed the composition of the Fourth Gospel, we shall discuss briefly the time and place of composition, and the first readers of the Gospel.

As to the date of its composition we possess no certain historical information. According to the general opinion, the Gospel is to be referred to the last decade of the first century, or to be still more precise, to 96 or one of the succeeding years. The grounds for this opinion are briefly as follows:

  • the Fourth Gospel was composed after the three Synoptics;

  • it was written after the death of Peter, since the last chapter - especially xxi, 18-19 presupposes the death of the Prince of the Apostles;

  • it was also written after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, for the Evangelist's references to the Jews (cf. particularly xi, 18; xviii, 1; xix, 41) seem to indicate that the end of the city and of the people as a nation is already come;

  • the text of xxi, 23, appears to imply that John was already far advanced in years when he wrote the Gospel;

  • those who denied the Divinity of Christ, the very point to which St. John devotes special attention throughout his Gospel, began to disseminate their heresy about the end of the first century;

  • finally, we have direct evidence concerning the date of composition. The so-called "Monarchian Prologue" to the Fourth Gospel, which was probably written about the year 200 or a little later, says concerning the date of the appearance of the Gospel: "He [sc. the Apostle John] wrote this Gospel in the Province of Asia, after he had composed the Apocalypse on the Island of Patmos". The banishment of John to Patmos occurred in the last year of Domitian's reign (i.e. about 95). A few months before his death (18 September, 96), the emperor had discontinued the persecution of the Christians and recalled the exiles (Eusebius, "Hist. eccl.", III, xx, nn. 5-7). This evidence would therefore refer the composition of the Gospel to A.D. 96 or one of the years immediately following.

The place of composition was, according to the above-mentioned prologue, the province of Asia. Still more precise is the statement of St. Irenaeus, who tells us that John wrote his Gospel "at Ephesus in Asia" (Adv. haer., III, i, 2). All the other early references are in agreement with these statements.

The first readers of the Gospel were the Christians of the second and third generations in Asia Minor. There was no need of initiating them into the elements of the Faith; consequently John must have aimed rather at confirming against the attacks of its opponents the Faith handed down by their parents.

Source
 
You are right. There is no concrete proof when the four Gospels were written. However, most scholars agree the approximate time of when they were written.

Matthew: 70-100
Mark: 68-73
Luke: 80-100
John: 90-110

This is much sooner than 200 years after the Ressurection.
Of course, people only lived about forty years in those days, but what's a litlle arithmetic among friends?
 
chcr said:
Of course, people only lived about forty years in those days, but what's a litlle arithmetic among friends?

You misunderstood. Those are years in AD that the Gospels may have been written. They are not the years of the authors. And I do not think what you said is entirely true...
 
Gotholic said:
You misunderstood. Those are years in AD that the Gospels may have been written. They are not the years of the authors. And I do not think what you said is entirely true...
I did not misunderstand. The apostles were adults at the time of Jesus, no? What your table says is that the gospels were written from, say, 60 to 110 years after Jesus' death (anno domini in other words). All manner of documentation shows that the average lifespan of a person during this time in the Roman Empire was on the order of forty years (do some research before you call someone a liar). Therefore, you're saying that the writers of the gospels lived at least double a normal lifespan for the time. Simple arithmetic. Don't feel badly though. It's at least the 100th time I've seen these figures. You're right, most theological scholars believe that the gospels were written just when you say. Very few of them address this simple and obvious implication though. In defense of Paul (Valaru, not the apostle), most of these same scholars agree that the christian bible was actually put together by Constantine and a few of the higher ranking bishops of the time after his battlefield "conversion" in the fourth century.
 
chcr said:
I did not misunderstand. The apostles were adults at the time of Jesus, no? What your table says is that the gospels were written from, say, 60 to 110 years after Jesus' death (anno domini in other words). All manner of documentation shows that the average lifespan of a person during this time in the Roman Empire was on the order of forty years (do some research before you call someone a liar). Therefore, you're saying that the writers of the gospels lived at least double a normal lifespan for the time. Simple arithmetic. Don't feel badly though. It's at least the 100th time I've seen these figures. You're right, most theological scholars believe that the gospels were written just when you say. Very few of them address this simple and obvious implication though.

I am sorry that I misunderstood you about misunderstanding. I did not call you a liar. Just because the average lifespan was around 40 years does not mean that it was not likely to have people to live beyond that.

The average-size family has 1.89 children. Does that mean there are no families that have more? Is there not a great chance you know someone who has more? I'm sure you have heard people having 8 children, which is more than four times the statistical average.

The average lifespan today is 74.1 years. But it is common that people live beyond that. You also hear of plenty of people living past their 100's. Which is more than 35 years past the average. The average gives just that - an average. It does not put an age limit. I have plenty of family members who are above the average too.

Now for the sake of argument, lets say that all of the Gospels were written around 70 AD. And all the Apostles were around 25-30 years old when Jesus died in 33 AD. That would mean the Apostles were around 65 years old when they wrote the Gospels. This is certainly plausible.

In fact, it is documented that Peter the Apostle died around 65 AD and that was only because he was executed. Also, there is documented evidence that John the Apostle died about 70 years after the crucifixion. So since Peter lived to be about 65 years old and John lived to be about 85 years old or older (around 100 AD), then it is certainly not unreasonable that the rest of the Apostles lived just as long and where able to write the Gospels.

chcr said:
In defense of Paul (Valaru, not the apostle), most of these same scholars agree that the christian bible was actually put together by Constantine and a few of the higher ranking bishops of the time after his battlefield "conversion" in the fourth century.

That assertion can not be backed up. The Bible took a long time to be formed. It was not compiled together through Constantine. Most of Scripture was already canonized by the time of Constantine anyways.
 
yep my source is rotten.com, mostly cause I am too lazy to track down ALL the sources, have had friends with degrees in theology, one is even writing her PHD thesis on translating biblical texts from the original language to english.

Is it anti-catholic website, it is an anti-everything website I have looked up the validity of their library section, and checking facts, it all comes back as the real deal.

It is obvious we will not agree on this issue, or any issue involving the church.

Beyond me being an atheist, I beleive that church, while founded with good intention, has been corrupted by it's own power, to the point of falsefying documents to maintain that power, and covering up, by any means necessary anything that might upsurt that power, or even get people to question any of it's doctrines. I beleive in it's history it has caused more death destruction and misery than anything else in human history, I beleive in modern times it's actions have been false, and it has not lived up to what it makes itself out to be. I beleive the new secular thinking that has been on the rise in the modern world is a good thing, and will free us of the monster we created known as "organized religion"
 
Gotholic, I find it more thatn a little indicative that when someone draws a conclusion that you see as supporting your position you're more than happy to quote them but when more or less the same group draws one that you disagree with, they must by definition be wrong. Actually the assertion about Constantine and the bible is one of the very few things about the bible which has any outside verification whatsoever. Re the apostles, the only evidence of their existence is biblical or derives from same.
 
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