Another school shooting

** giving up on the gun discussion **

In my country guns are illegal anyway, i'm happy with it.

I can't do a single thing to make guns illegal in your country, just as i can't do a single thing to avoid teenagers and insane people from going to their school/job and open fire killing innocent people.

Live safely in your house (protected by your gun), and be affraid when you leave your children at their school, or when you get to your office.

My 0.02
 
Another thing......

Good parenting will prevent this sort of thing from happening. If you have kids and don't pay attention to them, lead them and instruct them in what is acceptable and what is not (they watch everything you do, so you can't just tell them one thing and do another), and don't discipline them, this is the result. So many people have kids, and it's like a hobby they lose interest in. They stand on shifting sand, they can offer no guidance because they have none for themselves.
 
That's the point you don't seem to get, Louis...I'm sitting here, at my office, with a legally concealed pistol behind my hip and the skill to use it effectively.

Psychos exist, regardless of how strict the gun laws are. The recent attrocity in Germany illustrated that dramatically.

Those same psychos could come in your office and kill you. But they won't do it here...

Seriously consider it.
 
Originally posted by MitchSchaft

Better yet, you teach your kids the danger and proper, safe handling of firearms. I grew up around guns. With real bullets :eek: . Having guns around kids does not mean they will hurt themselves. It's up to what and how you teach them.
Click to expand...

My father taught me, along with my siblings, to shoot rifles and pistols at a young age. We were taught to respect the power of firearms, not fear them. The guns were locked in one place, the ammo in another. My Dad's pistol that he carried (with permit) was locked in his bedroom in a metal box with a combination and key lock. To my knowledge, he never had to use it at home.

Mitch, he also had a bumper sticker on his car that said, "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" :)
 
It's better to have one and not need it, than to need one and not have it. Your father was probably one of the few in this country that care. Same with mine.


Luis, we're not feeding you BS. We're not arguing for the sake of argument.
 
Mitch: I know, and believe me, i see your points, and i can clearly see why there should be the need of having guns. However, in my personal opinion, those reasons are just not enough to think that guns should be legal. And by the way you think i guess that you're not seeing my reasons of why they should be illegal.

As in almost every subject, there will always be pros and cons. And there will always be people defending their point of view.

I remember a similar "guns: legal or illegal" thread in a mexican forum, most of the members in there agreeded (?) that guns should be kept illegal.

You should consider it too.
 
Personal opinions and facts are hard to mix together. It might be your personal opinion that getting rid of firearms will deplete violent crime. But, it is a fact that where there are more guns, there is less violent crime.
Did you not take a look at the statistics I showed you? Look the statistics for Australia and the UK where firearms where completely banned nationwide. Then look at what happened to violent crimes afterwards.
You said it yourself. Criminals do not obey laws. That's a known fact. If they did obey laws, then they would not be criminals. Once again, by banning guns, all that is being accomplished is you giving criminals a free pass to commit violent crimes. Because they will not need to worry about you, the law biding citizen, to have such a weapon on your person at any given time to use against them to curb their efforts of a violent crime against you. Criminals will have guns and you won't because you are obeying the law.
 
By John R. Lott Jr.
Wall Street Journal
4/30/2002

Sixteen people were killed during Friday's school shooting in Germany. This follows the killing of 14 regional legislators in Zug, a Swiss Canton, last September, and the massacre of eight city council members in a Paris suburb last month. The three worst public shootings in the Western world during the past year all occurred in Europe, whose gun laws are exactly what gun-control advocates want the U.S. to adopt. Indeed, all three occurred in gun-free “safe zones.”

Germans who wish to get hold of a hunting rifle must undergo checks that can last a year, while those wanting a gun for sport must be a member of a club and obtain a license from the police. The French must apply for gun permits, which are granted only after an exhaustive background and medical record check and demonstrated need, with permits only valid for three years. Even Switzerland’s once famously liberal laws have become tighter. Swiss federal law now permits gun permits to only those who can demonstrate in advance a need for a weapon to protect themselves or others against a precisely specified danger.

The problem with such laws is that they take away guns from law-abiding citizens, while would-be criminals ignore them, leaving potential victims defenseless. The U.S. has shown that making guns more available is actually a better formula for law and order.

The U.S. has seen a major change from 1985 when just eight states had the most liberal right-to-carry laws, which automatically grant permits once applicants pass a criminal background check, pay their fees, and, when required, complete a training class. Today the total is 33 states. Deaths and injuries from multiple-victim public shootings fell on average by 78% in states that passed such laws.

In Europe, by contrast, violent crime is rising. Many factors are responsible, but it’s clear that strict gun control laws aren’t helping.

In 1996, Britain banned handguns. The ban was so tight that even shooters training for the Olympics were forced to go to other countries to practice. In the six years since the ban, gun crimes have risen by an astounding 40%. Britain now leads the U.S. by a wide margin in robberies and aggravated assaults. Although murder and rape rates are still lower than in the U.S., the difference is shrinking quickly. Dave Rogers, vice chairman of the Metropolitan Police Federation, said that, despite the ban, “the underground supply of guns does not seem to have dried up at all.”

Australia also passed severe gun restrictions in 1996, banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively. In the subsequent four years, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24%, and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%.

And both Britain and Australia have been thought to be ideal places for gun control because they are surrounded by water, making gun smuggling relatively difficult. By contrast gun-smuggling is much easier on the Continent or in the U.S.

Another inconvenient fact is frequently ignored by gun control advocates: Many countries with high homicide rates have gun bans. It is hard to think of a much more draconian police state than the former Soviet Union, with a ban on guns that dated back to the communist revolution. Yet newly released data show that from 1976 to 1985 the USSR’s homicide rate was between 21% and 41% higher than that of the U.S.

Many French politicians complained during their presidential election that the shooting in Paris meant “It’s getting like in America, and we don’t want to see that here.” Americans may draw a different lesson from the evidence, and hope that they don’t become more like the Europeans.

Mr. Lott is a resident scholar a the American Enterprise Institute and the author of “More Guns, Less Crime” (University of Chicago Press, 2000).
 
Pistolas

Mitch,

Your "statistics" are flawed, and I fear they are leading you to incorrect conclusions. I followed your "source" link to the statistics you posted. I then followed the link from that source to the studies upon which those statistics were derived. What did I find? The following:

The statistics for the United States and for Mexico were from different studies, taken several years apart.

The statistics were acknowledged as incomplete, and not from sources that reliably document all incidents being studied.

The publishers of that study warned, NO FEWER THAN 4 TIMES, that conclusions must not be drawn from these flawed and incomplete studies, and that more scientific studies were in progress.

And here's the real hoot: The total results of their study confirmed that proliferation of firearms in upper-middle class societies DO INDEED CORRESPOND TO INCREASED FIREARM RELATED CRIME IN THOSE SAME COUNTRIES. Go figure.

But as the publishers of that study warned, the study is flawed and incomplete, so no conclusions should be drawn from it.

I guess Luis already knows from gut feeling what the statistic jugglers will eventually prove, no?

Also, Mitch, you point to some countries with gun control, and rising crime rates and say "See? More gun control equals more crime!" How lame is that? Is it just possible that crime rates were already on the rise, which prompted the passing of stricter gun control?

If I were to play your statistics game, I could easily point out that just when England passed sweeping Food Processing Regulations several years ago, violent crime increased. Therefor, more food regulation obviously equals more crime. Easy, huh? I can assure you my studies and "sources" would be up to date at the very least, and complete as well.

Why no mention of Japan? They have draconian and strict arms laws AND low violent crime rate. How could that be? Did you know it's possible to name as many countries with strict control and low crime as it is to name countries with sloppy control and low crime? That applies for states in the United States as well.

Just something for you to chew on (other than Luis' arse).

RR
 
Welcome!!!

BTW, where are you from ? (i would guess that you're not from usa)
 
interesting thread mitch, but i don't see how the massive rise in assult crime in the uk has any relation to the strict restictions on firearms.

our laws were very tight as it was, the further restrictions merely tightened pistol legislation following a shooting at a primary school. we may have raising aggravated burglary and assault but they may well not be gun related.

the prospect of legal gun owners having firearms for protection has not helped in the school shootings in the us. the reality is that for all the legal guns sold and stored safely an responsibly there are as many idiots with illegal weapons.

some might argue that it is the us culture of guns that is informing the uk crime surge through tv, film and music.
 
Japan, for all it's overtones in your post, is not as peaceful as you'd believe. The crime in Japan is, 99% of the time, organized crime. The idiot street thugs in other parts of the world are just that...idiot thugs. They have no aims above thrills, or personal wealth. That's why they get caught, and that's why they go to jail. NEVER confuse organization with low crime.
 
outside looking in - I think all of those smileys apply, to some extent. As for this being my first post, I should admit I'm not here by coincidence. Neither is Mitch, I fear.

See this link for an explanation:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums...bb491548064ef7c30623397dabcff&threadid=111340

Mitch, I can see your eagerness to start and participate in this kind of debate, but please don't just parrot what others tell you. Just try speaking from your heart - in your own words. If you want to sling statistics, just be aware that anyone can make numbers say whatever they wish. You might also take a look at your reasoning for doing so. Do you just wish to argue for fun? Or do you intend to educate? Or are you just stirring up shit?

Gato, Luis, et al., - Howdy :)

As for the comment regarding Japan: Please note that I said "violent" crime, not crime in general. I would have to agree that Japan has it's share of organized crime - and white collar crime. They rival the U.S. in that regard. The subject, however, was violent crime - gun related crimes in general. Being smart enough to not get caught has nothing to do with tallying up figures on gun related crime. Mob gun crimes and street punk gun crimes tend to leave the same bullet filled corpses around for the counting - even if the punks are always getting caught.

As for where I am from, you guessed correctly and incorrectly. I am not "from" the U.S., but I do currently reside there.

Best to you,

RR

(Nice site here, btw)
 
Dude, you blew my cover! :eek:
Yes, I am a secret spy working for the greater cause... :cool:

I am a n00b when it comes to arguing this subject. I decided to make this thread my first attempt.

You'll see that I was speaking my heart throughout the entire post except when I brought up the statistics. As far as parroting other people; there are only a few ways to say things. As many people as there are that have argued this subject before me, it's not possible to come up with original material. That doesn't mean I don't have the right to try and spread the word the best I can.

I don't like dealing with statistics, but they're the only way sometimes. Statistics can be flawed, some aren't. Everybody will find a way to disbelieve anything if they want to.

America is one of the most diverse societies in the world. Getting rid of guns in this country will do nothing but back-up my arguments for keeping them. It is nothing like the UK. Some parts might be just as tame or less tame and there are more parts that are beyond your belief.

This is a 2 sided argument. It's an issue of personal freedoms and the right to defend myself with deadly force. And unless you live in America, then you don't understand freedom the way we do. Most people in America don't understand it either, so let's not argue that.

I'm not gonna repeat myself and I also will not back down. If you can make an argument for why they should be banned, then by all means try me.
 
Originally posted by Rotten Rob
I'm not here by coincidence. Neither is Mitch, I fear.
Click to expand...
I just wanted to reiterate for all who don't know that this thread is not the sole reason that MitchShaft is at this forum, he is one who argued for a forum for us like this for a long time, and was an integral part in getting the ball rolling which in turn got the forum started. :)
 
Rotten Rob

Yes, the study you cited was flawed. Try this article as it is much more recent, cites the United Nations 1996 Demographic Yearbook published in 1998 of 86 nations, and shows that 23 of those nations have higher rates of homicide than the U.S.

http://www.haciendapub.com/stolinsky.html
Looking at the homicide figures, we again wonder about accuracy. Are "political" killings (by the government or rebels) in Northern Ireland, Egypt, Israel, Guatemala, Peru, China, and elsewhere listed as homicides, listed separately, or concealed? We must admit that the U.S. has a higher homicide rate than any Western European nation. Still, 23 nations admit to higher rates: Armenia, Bahamas, Belarus, Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador, El Salvador, Estonia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Mexico, Moldova, Paraguay, Philippines, Puerto Rico, Russia, Sao Tome, Tajikistan, Trinidad, Ukraine, and Venezuela. Using the 1997 U.S. homicide rate of 7.3, Azerbaijan and Cuba also have higher rates. Nine nations (ten using the 1997 figures) including Russia have both higher suicide and higher homicide rates.
Click to expand...

table1.jpg


----------------------------------------
Gun Control: The proposition that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own panty hose, is more acceptable than allowing that same woman to defend herself with a firearm.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top