CBS Airs Alleged GIs Abuse of Iraqis

[Gato_Solo]

First of all, he was a she. Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski. Second, No, if a Brig. General gives you an order, you damn well better follow it or be prepared to leave the military.

Sorry, PT, but all orders received don't have to be obeyed. For example...

Your Battalion commander orders you, and your platoon, to knock over a bank in enemy territory, and bring the contents of the vault to headquarters. You don't have to obey that order. It's an unlawful order. If you, and your platoon, are stupid enough to knock over that bank, then, when the news breaks...and it will...you, and your platoon get to be paraded in the press as a reason to disband certain elements of the military. If your only defense is "The BG ordered us to", and you don't have proof, then you'll be in Ft Leavenworth turning big rocks into little rocks for quite some time. If the BG is stupid enough to put those orders into writing, and signs them, then the BG is the one with his/her ass in a sling. Of course, you'll all be together in Ft Leavenworth because you, and your platoon, had an obligation to turn the BG over to your services IG office, along with the original orders (I hope you made copies), for prosecution. The IG would, at that point, take over, thus making the only person in Ft Leavenworth the errant BG...if he doesn't cop a plea and wind up in a VA hospitals Mental ward. You will be hailed as heroes, and quietly moved around to unwanted areas for behavior that could be considered insubordinant, but, at least you won't be swinging a hammer.

 

[Gato_Solo]

now if the order is against the GC you still have to follow it? damn. but thanks for the explanation

Nope. See previous post.

 

[Gonz]

This is where this case becomes muddy. One of the accused is setting up his defense, saying that the GC was never taught to this particular bunch of weekend warriors. With that in mind, will their action sprove to be illegal since no Officer, NCO or enlisted protested or straightened out the offenders. They didn't do anyting wrong (the guy with the bedsheet on the box led to believe he'd be electrocuted wouldn't have been).

If actions are believed to be okay or legal aren't, who's to blame?

 

[freako104]

Sorry, PT, but all orders received don't have to be obeyed. For example...

Your Battalion commander orders you, and your platoon, to knock over a bank in enemy territory, and bring the contents of the vault to headquarters. You don't have to obey that order. It's an unlawful order. If you, and your platoon, are stupid enough to knock over that bank, then, when the news breaks...and it will...you, and your platoon get to be paraded in the press as a reason to disband certain elements of the military. If your only defense is "The BG ordered us to", and you don't have proof, then you'll be in Ft Leavenworth turning big rocks into little rocks for quite some time. If the BG is stupid enough to put those orders into writing, and signs them, then the BG is the one with his/her ass in a sling. Of course, you'll all be together in Ft Leavenworth because you, and your platoon, had an obligation to turn the BG over to your services IG office, along with the original orders (I hope you made copies), for prosecution. The IG would, at that point, take over, thus making the only person in Ft Leavenworth the errant BG...if he doesn't cop a plea and wind up in a VA hospitals Mental ward. You will be hailed as heroes, and quietly moved around to unwanted areas for behavior that could be considered insubordinant, but, at least you won't be swinging a hammer.

ok so you can disobey. now I am a little confused. PT says no you cant you say you can. Is it you can disobey if and only if it is illegal and whatnot? what if you choose not to obey but you also do not turn in the Commanding Officer?

 

[PT]

Ok, Gato, now put it in realistic terms. Your commanding officer tells you to do this, what happened in the prison. How many enlisted people would disobey that order?

 

[Gato_Solo]

Ok, Gato, now put it in realistic terms. Your commanding officer tells you to do this, what happened in the prison. How many enlisted people would disobey that order?

Any one with a backbone. If I was ordered to do so, I'd question the order. If ordered twice, I'd ask for the orders in writing. Once you ask that they write down the order, it usually goes away. If it comes down in writing, and you obey the order, then you have a record of who and why. If the order comes down in writing and you still refuse, you have an impermeable defense from prosecution. We are taught, from basic training, the difference between a lawful and an unlawful order. Officers are taught from ROTC/OTC/Academy the difference between a lawful and an unlawful order. Refusing to obey an unlawful order get's you yelled at. Refusing to obey a lawful order could, in time of war, get you executed.

 

[Gato_Solo]

This is where this case becomes muddy. One of the accused is setting up his defense, saying that the GC was never taught to this particular bunch of weekend warriors. With that in mind, will their action sprove to be illegal since no Officer, NCO or enlisted protested or straightened out the offenders. They didn't do anyting wrong (the guy with the bedsheet on the box led to believe he'd be electrocuted wouldn't have been).

If actions are believed to be okay or legal aren't, who's to blame?

Sorry, Gonz, but those guys are guilty as hell, and they had to have known it. As I've said before...we all get the LOAC (Law Of Armed Conflict) briefing before we go, and we all get the ROE (Rules Of Engagement) briefing before we go. They're either lying or incredibly stupid...especially the prison guard. He, above all others, should have known better...

 

[The Other One]

I wonder who CBS figured would benefit from this 'reporting'?

Arab Stations Tout CBS's Images of Iraqi Prisoners
NewsMax.com Wires
Friday, April 30, 2004
CAIRO, Egypt – Arab television stations led their newscasts Friday with photographs of Iraqi prisoners being humiliated by U.S. military police, with one main channel saying the pictures were evidence of the "immoral practices" of American forces.
The images, which document alleged abuses that have led to charges against six American soldiers, were first broadcast Wednesday night in the United States on CBS's "60 Minutes II."

 

[Gato_Solo]

I wonder who CBS figured would benefit from this 'reporting'?

Arab Stations Tout CBS's Images of Iraqi Prisoners
NewsMax.com Wires
Friday, April 30, 2004
CAIRO, Egypt – Arab television stations led their newscasts Friday with photographs of Iraqi prisoners being humiliated by U.S. military police, with one main channel saying the pictures were evidence of the "immoral practices" of American forces.
The images, which document alleged abuses that have led to charges against six American soldiers, were first broadcast Wednesday night in the United States on CBS's "60 Minutes II."

Doesn't matter what they thought at this point. What matters now is why they did it. I'm of the opinion that the press doesn't realize the people they put in jeopardy every time they run a story like this. Is it news? Yes. Was it necessary to put it on the screen with those pictures? No. The pictures were nothing more than a shot in the arm for their ratings.

 

[Gato_Solo]

This is why that kind of story shouldn't see TV. It spawns copy-cats.

 

[chcr]

The thing that bugs me the most about the incident is that we know these clowns were an abberation, looneys escaped form the bin, etc. Unfortunately, when some Iraqi cleric or other says, "Look, the Americans are worse than Saddam" at least some of the Iraqi people that wouldn't have believed it before will believe it now. As Gato says, it endangers a lot of people.

 

[The Other One]

I'm of the opinion that the press doesn't realize the people they put in jeopardy every time they run a story like this...... The pictures were nothing more than a shot in the arm for their ratings.

So true about the ratings (if it bleeds it leads...) but they've been in the business long enough to know how the stories in the manner they are presented are going to come across to the viewers, especially when the words 'Baghdad', 'victimized', 'prisoners' and 'detainees' are tossed around in the script; think of how Skippy pauses and smirks when he realizes how detrimental to the President what he is about to say is....or how whoever snags the signal is going to react to the broadcast.

 

[Gonz]

If the modern day press was on the job, we'd all be speaking German today.

 

[chcr]

If the modern day press was on the job, we'd all be speaking German today.

Yawol, mien herr.