Comparisons

Gonz, IMO 9/11 is in the past. Yes, it was a heinous crime & terrible event and it has had far reaching effects on the USA and the world as a whole. But using it as a reason for every damned decision made by government is short sighted and silly.

How long will it be used as governing factor for the way Americans are supposed to live their lives? IMO the Patriot Act, though in a way probably not such a bad idea if its goal is to protect the people, shouldn't be based on one single act. By doing so it does more harm than good because it entrenches a view of lawmaking based on fear.

And I believe that this Act not only makes prisoners of US citizens in their own country, but in the long run could be damaging to US foreign affairs.
 
In contrast, you'd be saying not to attack Germany because they didn't really attack us? Maybe even leave Japan to destroy their Asian neighbors?

Less than 3 years, in parlance of this magnitude, is the present. Of course people (countries) are mad at us. We are doing what they couldn't or wouldn't & it makes them nervous. Protection of our citizens is the number one priority of government & our commander in chief. Hell, it's the only obligation of government. Without protection, what need do we have of one?
 
Oh OK.

So then, if a time of 3 years is still to be considered as present, when will it become past? And the reason I say that basing all decisions which will directly influence your future on a singular event in the past isn't alltogether healthy is because I've seen what it has done to my own country. We are 10 years down the line & still there has been no change because people refuse to look to the future and cling to the past to give them vindication for what they are doing.

In the eyes of some it is fine because it's like an Elastoplast on a festering cut - it dresses it nicely and brings a little relief, but essentially the underlying factors need to be addressed to really make a worthwhile difference. But you see, in the long run it undermines democracy and that which the government is really supposed to protect.

Is it really protection if civil rights are being undermined, disguised as being for your own good. BTW, I can't remember, but was there a referendum held to vote yay or nay for such a far reaching policy?

As for RICO - as far as I'm concerned it has become laughable because it has been exploited by criminal lawayers in personal injury cases to the extent where it's not even used for the purpose it was intended (curbing racceteering), so will the Patriot Act run along the same route? Has your government in effect caused yet another system which will eventually be abused by individuals out to corrupt the system, put in place to protect them in the first place?

BTW - what does Gemany & Japan have to do with it?
 
Erm, freako - I know he was referring to WWII, I just want to know what the Patriot Act & our opinions thereof have to do with that.
 
AlphaTroll said:
Oh OK.

So then, if a time of 3 years is still to be considered as present, when will it become past? And the reason I say that basing all decisions which will directly influence your future on a singular event in the past isn't alltogether healthy is because I've seen what it has done to my own country. We are 10 years down the line & still there has been no change because people refuse to look to the future and cling to the past to give them vindication for what they are doing.

In the eyes of some it is fine because it's like an Elastoplast on a festering cut - it dresses it nicely and brings a little relief, but essentially the underlying factors need to be addressed to really make a worthwhile difference. But you see, in the long run it undermines democracy and that which the government is really supposed to protect.

Is it really protection if civil rights are being undermined, disguised as being for your own good. BTW, I can't remember, but was there a referendum held to vote yay or nay for such a far reaching policy?

As for RICO - as far as I'm concerned it has become laughable because it has been exploited by criminal lawayers in personal injury cases to the extent where it's not even used for the purpose it was intended (curbing racceteering), so will the Patriot Act run along the same route? Has your government in effect caused yet another system which will eventually be abused by individuals out to corrupt the system, put in place to protect them in the first place?

BTW - what does Gemany & Japan have to do with it?
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Germ & Jap....attacks on the US "in the past" thing.

Yes, this law is abusable, as is RICO. Which goes with what I push...less government. We keep writing laws & soon, there'll be too many to understand. Congrss keeps promising to go to Washington & do this & do that when, the reasoning behinf the successes of Clintons government is they did nothing. 8 years of ugly nasty nailbiting partisanship kept them from spending & passing hundreds of laws we don't need.

Every war has had laws come & go "for our own good". The good ones stayed & the bad ones were passed into the Supreme Court graveyard.

When will 3 years be the past? When we are safe (reasonably). There are still groups that possess materials &/or countries that provide assistance. Through politics & warfare, that will & must end, for our safety as well as yours (all of you). The terrorists will not settle down & not hurt us if we understand. We all tried that. It only emboldened them. You may refuse to see that & prefer to leave your blinders on but not all of us are that short-sighted.

Terrorists understand one thing-violence. We have the ability to make them understand one more thing...not here & not today.
 
maybe I am misinterperting your stand but as of late havent you been pushing for more govt? or again time of war? when war over you will fight the govt like you used to?
 
This is why we have a fit over the Patriot act:

Bill of Rights, Amendment IV, The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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How much more of the constitution can Bush repeal given 4 more years?
 
Gonz said:
When will 3 years be the past? When we are safe (reasonably). There are still groups that possess materials &/or countries that provide assistance. Through politics & warfare, that will & must end, for our safety as well as yours (all of you). The terrorists will not settle down & not hurt us if we understand. We all tried that. It only emboldened them. You may refuse to see that & prefer to leave your blinders on but not all of us are that short-sighted.

Terrorists understand one thing-violence. We have the ability to make them understand one more thing...not here & not today.
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Gonz - The problem is that terrorists are not whole countries...they are zealots who happen to come from particular countries. You can't keep punishing whole countries and whole races/religions etc... based on the acts or potential acts of a group of their ilk.

If a group of people living in Syria decide to attack the USA...should the USA bomb Syria? If Certain members of North Korea decide to bomb a Japanese subway, should we bomb North Korea? If the IRA bomb a central-London pub, should we bomb the UK? If members of Klu Klux Klan decide to burn down a few black-churches and a Synagogue in Memphis, should we bomb the USA?

It's the assumption of guilt by association which scares me. I don't understand why it doesn't scare you... arrested for the potential of doing something and not the actuality.
 
MrBishop said:
It's the assumption of guilt by association which scares me. I don't understand why it doesn't scare you... arrested for the potential of doing something and not the actuality.
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Gonz said:
After 9/11 I wanted to nuke the entire region
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Fair comment I'd say Bish...
 
markjs said:
This is why we have a fit over the Patriot act:



How much more of the constitution can Bush repeal given 4 more years?
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chcr said:
Looks to me like he's going to try for all of it, Mark. :shrug:
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This is why I've been given the task of supporting Bush at OTC. Well, throw some, scratch that, throw most of Squiggys quotes in there too.

You all find reasons to dislike, distrust, etc our sitting President & Commander in Chief yet you all are doing it fully protected by the US Constitution. Not one shred of distrust or dislike for our enemies. Why aren't you grilling saddam instead of Dubya.The press is going out of its way to bash Bush & most of you follow suit yet we're not being attacked anymore are we? AlQieda is sending letters saying "go to Iraq & do what the Shi'ites won't. We're losing".

Until the President does something I think is not in the best interest of my country I will continue to show you why you are wrong. I've been able to do it for 2 years now & will most likely get 4 more.
 
Gonz said:
Until the President does something I think is not in the best interest of my country I will continue to show you why you are wrong. I've been able to do it for 2 years now & will most likely get 4 more.
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Saying Bush is right because Saddam is a bad man is in no way proving you are right. Telling us we are wrong is not proving it.

I was under the impression that the reason for the current discussion about the patriot act was because a great number of people feel the president and his government is doing something that is not in the best interests of their country. Or is it only your opinion that counts?

If you at least try and answer the points raised you may get a lot more support.
 
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