Evolution...the good, the bad, and the ugly?

I don't know which is absolute & which is superstition. I lean towards the evolution argument & have no faith but each side has an argument, as RDX has rather poignantly handled. His last (post 15) is quite good actually. 50 years, 100, 500...it's not important as to the exact number in this case but the sentiment.
 
freako104 said:
I thought that was Xtianity?
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n'ah

moses noah abraham etc.

Back to Evolution Vs. Creationism

I'm in the evolution house, 7 days (as per fundemtalists) doesn't jive right with me, I see to much proof of evolution, the common ansestor version as compared to ethe coming from ape version.
 
freako104 said:
I thought that was Xtianity?
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Christianity came from Judeaism. First there were the Jews, then Jesus came along, who was a Jew. The romans killed Jesus, and christianity was born.
 
yea I knew where it sprang from and all PT but the way he had worded it confused me. plus Jesus supposedly heard voices and told everyone its god. when he was killed his followers formed a new religion. they were prosecuted at the time.
 
Jesus was a prophet, yes. So was Abraham, Moses, Noah, and a handful of others. The tenants of the christian faith come from the same prophets as the Jewish faith. Abraham, Moses, Noah and Jesus all supposedly heard the voice of God, in one form or another.

To get back to the point though, it is odd how most of the world believes that these people spoke to God, yet these same people would gladly lock someone up today for saying God spoke to them.
 
ok sorry about the misunderstanding there.


well look at it this way PT. that was a different time. now we have different beliefs and knowledge and so on. so 100% honest no I do not find it strange at all. In fact I think something like that might be somewhat expected
 
PuterTutor said:
To get back to the point though, it is odd how most of the world believes that these people spoke to God, yet these same people would gladly lock someone up today for saying God spoke to them.
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Actually...the point was about evolution vs. creationism...but your direction is good too.

The reason why someone who claimed to talk to God would end up in a funny-farm?
I can think of a few reasons.
a) Organized religion would have us believe that their clergy are closer to God than the rest of us peons. If a priest said that s/he was talking to God...not many people would twitch en eyelid.

b) People believe in God and the power of prayer etc...and they believe that miracles happen...but they really don't want to believe...or rather, they don't want proof and they certainly don't want anyone coming around and changing their religion or their church with new teachings.

Think of all the debunked 'miracles'. Someone hears of a statue of Mary which is crying tears of blood. The papacy sends people to investigate, the press does as well...most of those want to prove that it's a hoax. They'll tear the thing apart hoping that it's a hoax, and if they can't prove that it's a hoax..it dissapears into the Vatican's vaults. Why? Well....why should this little church in Nicaragua have a real miracle when the vatican doesn't? What does it mean? If this guy is talking to God and getting new commandments, do we still follow the old ones? What if he's wrong? What if??!?!

People are happy with the religion that's been around since they were children, or since their grandparents were children. Change is the enemy of the church. If you change things...people get afraid that they've been doing it wrong all their lives. So they fight change...and people stating that God has personally talked to them means change, and bleeding statues means change. So, either someone's insane, the statue is a hoax or things are going to change.

Guess what...why take chances? The guy MUST be insane and that statue MUST be a hoax.

...oh...and Evolution MUST be a fabrication of God in order to keep our scientists entertained.
 
RDX said:
But tell me this, if in the end, we are nothing but time + matter + chance and all those religions out there are wrong, what does agnostic or the athiest gain? He can never know if his viewpoint is truly correct until he is dead. In his grave, can he scoff at the living and dead because of their ignorance? Can he gload in the fact that he was right and so many other people were wrong? What about the theists? What does he lose if he is wrong? Can he feel defeat now that he is gone? If his religious views give him meaning in his life unitl he dies, will any of that meaning be lost when he is in the grave?

On the other hand, if a theists is correct, and there IS life after death, than what does the agnostic/ atheists lose? Depending on which religion you look at, a lot. And what does the theist have to gain? Everything.

When an agnostic/atheists dies, he has everything to lose and nothing to gain; when a theists dies, he has nothing to lose and everything to gain. How then does one argue against religion from a philisophical standpoint? Since a non-theists has nothing to gain after death, the benefits from being a non-theists must come in the current life. And what benefits are there... to be free to persue the desires of his heart that are in conflict with theistic morals.
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are you trying to logically prove that every one should be religious instead of secular? Good luck. According to this logic religion is simply about hedging your bets. A kind of metaphysical insurance policy. So that you either die and dont have to worry or you go to heaven and you can high five each other about being right. Well thats absurd. And I know many many christians who would take great umbrage with this kind of cost analysis thinking. Last time I checked following a religion was about doing something you BELIEVE in not simply because its the safe thing to do.

Furthermore, the non-theist does NOT hold his point of view in the hopes of proving a theist wrong. He feels that way based on what he has observed from his perspective in the world (and the universe) and concluded that agnosticism or atheism is the logical point of view to things. Its not a game. Its not a contest. Its not about gambling or covering all your bases. Its about how you perceive your world. And thats all. Whether you’re a devout religionist or a godless atheist. Religion shouldnt be about keeping people in check. According to some christians ALL humans contain god given morals whether we believe in god or not. This is the reason, they say, why an atheist would sacrifice himself or herself for the life of another. because god gave them a right and a wrong compass to live by. I say morals can be traced directly to genes and social context. So either way it undermines your argument that its just about fearing hell.
 
Well personally there seems to be inconsistencies in most theories about anything, so maybe its a mix and match affair, just take the applicable parts from all the different theories, if they were proven and agreed on, it'd be the paradigm of evolution anyways. :nerd:
 
Thulsa Doom said:
Furthermore, the non-theist does NOT hold his point of view in the hopes of proving a theist wrong.
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I never understand why so many religious people miss this one. I guess they just simply can't believe that you don't care what they believe. I'm not going to change my mind, why do they assume I want them to change theirs.
 
Then why do so many atheist types get downright hostile when a believer comes in?
 
because it can be hostile for us. and not all on both sides are hostile. but there is some hostility there
 
Gonz said:
Then why do so many atheist types get downright hostile when a believer comes in?
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same reason beleivers get hostile when atheists come in, nobody wants there beleifs knocked.

I only get hostile when people try to "save me" I don't beleive in what they are saying, and find it rude that they want to force me into things.

I don't push my beleifs, and as long as others don't want to push theirs onto me, I can respect there beliefs.

What really gets my goat though is the Jehovias Witnesses posthumously baptising Jews.

I understand they think it will get these peopel into heaven, but guess what they are (where) jews, deal with it, and stay in your own damn yard.
 
I've not been keeping up on this thread and haven't read it all. But for the record, I'm a believer in Creation. Sure, I believe species have adapted, but I just can't buy into the whole evolution thing nor that the world is billions of years old. I believe it's somewhere in the 15k-20k range.

I don't have so much reasons for my beliefs other than that's how I was raised and believing it doesn't hurt me. :shrug:

I try not to convert others, I don't expect anyone to try to convert me.
 
Thulsa Doom said:
are you trying to logically prove that every one should be religious instead of secular? Good luck. According to this logic religion is simply about hedging your bets. A kind of metaphysical insurance policy. So that you either die and dont have to worry or you go to heaven and you can high five each other about being right. Well thats absurd. And I know many many christians who would take great umbrage with this kind of cost analysis thinking. Last time I checked following a religion was about doing something you BELIEVE in not simply because its the safe thing to do.

Furthermore, the non-theist does NOT hold his point of view in the hopes of proving a theist wrong. He feels that way based on what he has observed from his perspective in the world (and the universe) and concluded that agnosticism or atheism is the logical point of view to things. Its not a game. Its not a contest. Its not about gambling or covering all your bases. Its about how you perceive your world. And thats all. Whether you’re a devout religionist or a godless atheist. Religion shouldnt be about keeping people in check. According to some christians ALL humans contain god given morals whether we believe in god or not. This is the reason, they say, why an atheist would sacrifice himself or herself for the life of another. because god gave them a right and a wrong compass to live by. I say morals can be traced directly to genes and social context. So either way it undermines your argument that its just about fearing hell.
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You should've been a priest. THat is, by and far, one of the strongest arguments for religious conviction as well as being a great arguement for not trying to convert non-christians to the faith. I've printed it out for my priest.

Excellet! Well done, young Skywalker!
 
chcr said:
Bish, you completely missed the point.
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It was about people joining a religion because they're hedging their bets instead of a belief in the actualy teachings said religion...
..or

..maybe I'm fucked up and missed the point, but that's what I read into it.
 
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