First Muslim Congressman

Gotholic said:
That is absolutely not true.

It is even possible for atheists to go to heaven.
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That seems debatable.

"This has always been the teaching of the Church: no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church, or without holding the Catholic Faith or without submission to the Pope. There is no salvation for those that die as pagans, Jews, heretics or schismatics: not for protestants and not for the eastern 'orthodox'; not for any one but Catholics. I shall provide some documentation that this teaching, that only those that die as Catholics can be saved, has always been (and always will be) the true teaching of the Church."

"Many other passages could be quoted to the same import. It has always been the teaching of the Church that only those that die as Catholics, with the Catholic Faith and who are subject to the Pope, can be saved, with absolutely no exceptions. This was taught by the Lord, was the teaching of the fathers, and has been the teaching of the popes, doctors and saints through the ages. Indeed the Church has infallibly defined it three times. As such, it is, and always will be, the true teaching of the Church, however much men become confused by the heresy of Liberalism or choose to believe otherwise." [Thomas Sparks]
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"One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." [IV Lateran Council, A.D. 1215]

"The Holy, Roman Church .... firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will 'go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels', unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." [Pope Eugenius IV, A.D. 1431-1447, at the Oecumenical Union Council of Florence]

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is wholly necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." [Pope Boniface VIII, A.D. 1294-1303, "Unam Sanctam"]
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http://www.geocities.com/pharsea/GoToHell.html
 
chcr said:
I'll bet less than 25% of muslims are Arabs. I'll further bet that less than 40% are even middle-eastern.
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You'd win that bet, too. Most Muslims are Asian. Most terrorists are Middle Eastern...Although the Phillipines, Indonesia, India, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka have their fair share, they mostly stick to their own countries...
 
spike said:
Got any numbers/statistics on that? Just curious.
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What he said, Gato. I'm not arguing, mind, just curious too. I know the only ones you here about in the American media are middle-eastern, but I also know that a lot of others exist. :shrug:
 
chcr said:
What he said, Gato. I'm not arguing, mind, just curious too. I know the only ones you here about in the American media are middle-eastern, but I also know that a lot of others exist. :shrug:
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Partial list of known terrorist organizations from the CDI. Another list from the Department of State. There are most likely more, but they are either very small, or very localized.
 
Gato_Solo said:
You can count, can't you? What did you think...all terrorists would raise their hands to be counted in a census? :rofl4:
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Ok, so you had no basis at all for saying "most terrorists are Middle Eastern". I thought maybe you did for some reason.
 
spike said:
Most muslims would be happy to let anyone touch or even *gasp* read a koran.
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Not so much....;)

Muslims do not touch the book unless in a state of ablution....
http://alsaher.com/islam/

Strict Muslims.....hold that non-believers should not touch the book.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2005-05-16-holy-books_x.htm

Prisoners also complained about "non-believers" touching the book, according to the documents.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/25/gitmo.quran/index.html

...deal with sensitivity about the Koran in several ways, including enlisting some of the Muslims working for the military as translators to handle the books during inspections, so that nonbelievers would not touch the books.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/17/p...d=1&ei=5070&en=491f34181548e058&ex=1165381200

spike said:
There was another list earlier in the thread but I was kind of looking for something that shows most terrorists are Middle Eastern.
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What percentage would define "most"---51% of the groups on those lists?
 
spike said:
Ok, so you had no basis at all for saying "most terrorists are Middle Eastern". I thought maybe you did for some reason.
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Did you even count the number of organizations on the list, and extrapolate from there? No? I didn't think so. You know, you are very consistent. Very wrong, but very consistent. ;)
 
Gato_Solo said:
Did you even count the number of organizations on the list, and extrapolate from there? No? I didn't think so. You know, you are very consistent. Very wrong, but very consistent. ;)
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You'd have to know the number in each group to make any kind of estimate. So apparently you had no basis.

What the hell am I wrong about anyway? I asked if you had some numbers to support your claim and you don't.
 
spike said:
You'd have to know the number in each group to make any kind of estimate. So apparently you had no basis.
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No. You don't. You can extrapolate, which you refuse to do. In your rush to 'prove me wrong', you abandon reason. In fact, by your own account, you have basis to naysay me, since you cannot prove otherwise.
 
Gato_Solo said:
No. You don't. You can extrapolate, which you refuse to do. In your rush to 'prove me wrong', you abandon reason. In fact, by your own account, you have basis to naysay me, since you cannot prove otherwise.
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I'm not trying to prove you "wrong" just stating that your claim has no basis. Which it doesn't. Reason says that in order to assert "most terrorists are Middle Eastern" you would have to have some reasonable information on the number of terrorists worldwide and the number who are Middle Eastern.

Since you admitted yourself that there is no census that claim is unfounded.

A quick glance through this list makes it appear that less than most of the groups are not middle eastern, but there could be 5 people in some groups and 10,000 in others so who knows :shrug:
 
spike said:
That seems debatable.

"This has always been the teaching of the Church: no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church, or without holding the Catholic Faith or without submission to the Pope. There is no salvation for those that die as pagans, Jews, heretics or schismatics: not for protestants and not for the eastern 'orthodox'; not for any one but Catholics. I shall provide some documentation that this teaching, that only those that die as Catholics can be saved, has always been (and always will be) the true teaching of the Church."

"Many other passages could be quoted to the same import. It has always been the teaching of the Church that only those that die as Catholics, with the Catholic Faith and who are subject to the Pope, can be saved, with absolutely no exceptions. This was taught by the Lord, was the teaching of the fathers, and has been the teaching of the popes, doctors and saints through the ages. Indeed the Church has infallibly defined it three times. As such, it is, and always will be, the true teaching of the Church, however much men become confused by the heresy of Liberalism or choose to believe otherwise." [Thomas Sparks]
Click to expand...


"One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." [IV Lateran Council, A.D. 1215]

"The Holy, Roman Church .... firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will 'go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels', unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." [Pope Eugenius IV, A.D. 1431-1447, at the Oecumenical Union Council of Florence]

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is wholly necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." [Pope Boniface VIII, A.D. 1294-1303, "Unam Sanctam"]
Click to expand...

http://www.geocities.com/pharsea/GoToHell.html
Click to expand...

It's not debatable, really. Thomas Sparks apparently has a misunderstanding - he is only quoting some parts and he is not presenting the whole picture. You can be saved through innocent ignorance.

You can understand that it is possible to attain Salvation outside the Church just by reading what the Church Fathers have said regarding the subject.
 
What's your take on innocent ignorance then?

In order not to go to hell as a non-Catholic you have to be ignorant of the Catholic teachings?
 
Doesn't seem to prove your point, Gotholic

"Anyone who receives the sacrament of baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a heretical or schismatic one, receives the whole sacrament; but salvation, which is the strength of the sacrament, he will not have, if he has had the sacrament outside the Catholic Church [and remains in deliberate schism]. He must therefore return to the Church, not so that he might receive again the sacrament of baptism, which no one dare repeat in any baptized person, but so that he may receive eternal life in Catholic society, for the obtaining of which no one is suited who, even with the sacrament of baptism, remains estranged from the Catholic Church" (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).

Many of the quotes mentioned being brought back to the Church, or baptism etc... What of those who don't know about Christianity or don't believe it but live a wholesome life?

***

On topic:

"The point is that for what actually happens on the floor of the House, with 435 people, you won't see a Bible, you won't see a Torah, you won't see a Quran," said Rep. Earl Blumenauer, D-Ore.

It's during a private ceremony later, when new members of Congress stand with the speaker and re-enact their swearing-in, that religious texts sometimes appear. And that's when Ellison will pick up the Quran -- and other new members will bring in their family Bibles or new ones bought just for the occasion.

"That's when you will see a hand on a religious text," said Fred Beuttler, deputy historian of the House of Representatives. "But that's an informal ceremony for the members or the members' own purposes. It's not the official swearing-in ceremony of the House, when no religious text is used."

http://worldpoliticsnews.com/nation...ongress-Wants-Quran-for-Swearing-in-Ceremony/

So much for that. Right?
 
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