Hey GNL

Gonz

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
Even when we follow your sagely advice & do teh right thing (returning prisoners to their homeland) we are wrong. And you wonder why we ignore everybody :rolleyes:

MOSCOW (AP)--The United States has turned over seven Russian citizens who were being held at the U.S. detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, U.S. and Russian officials said Monday.

However, the human rights group Amnesty International questioned the move.

``There is no evidence that the U.S. has adhered to its obligation to not forcibly return anyone to any country where they may face serious human rights violations, including detention without charge or trial, unfair trial, or torture,'' said Amnesty's Maureen Greenwood.


AP-NY-03-01-04 1927EST
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AJC
 
So ... you're only supposed to return those who want to go? And have to keep feeding and clothing those whose own gov't wants them back???

Reality check, aisle three.
 
So you return those that claim asylum and keep those that want releasing?

You're surprised people think you're out of order?
 
At this point, I don't think it's at all about what the prisoners want. They are prisoners, remember?

OH hey, that murderer doesn't want to serve the rest of his sentence, guess we better let him go....
 
this will sound cold on my part but they are prisoners as PT said. there is a reason for that. whatever the reason is there is one.
 
Now wait a minute. Why the hell are you appologizing for your opinion? Just because it's not PC doesn't mean you should be ashamed of it.
 
PuterTutor said:
At this point, I don't think it's at all about what the prisoners want. They are prisoners, remember?

OH hey, that murderer doesn't want to serve the rest of his sentence, guess we better let him go....
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I think there is a disctinct difference between a prisoner who is serving a sentence in his own country and one who is serving a sentence in a foreign country. For some being held in a foreign country has advantages as they may be serving lighter sentences there than in their own countries - for instance Nigerian drug dealers who are caught in SA and sent to prison here will probably serve a maximum of 10 years (if that much), where in their home country that would be the minimum time served.

Also for many prisoners it could mean the difference between life and death - the penal code of the country they are being held in might not support death penalty but their own does.

Of course the reverse is also true, think about the thousands of foreigners serving sentences and facing possible execution in Eastern jails. In many cases they have not had fair trials as they would have had in their own country - often language barriers prevent this as does a lack of understanding of the judicial system on possible cultural bias.

IMO it's not just a case of giving prisoners what they want, but rather a matter where each individual case should be considered on their own merit, including the pros and cons of extradition of that specific prisoner.

And keep in mind that being a prisoner does not mean a person is no longer human with certain rights, so if a prisoner who has a genuine case appeals to the judiciary of the country he is being held in he has a right to be heard.
 
AT nobody said the prisoners werent human. they are. they should be treated as such, BUT there is a reason they are in prison. and this will be a little off topic but I personally am for lessing the rights of the prisoners. nobody wants to have all their rights taken away.
 
AlphaTroll said:
And keep in mind that being a prisoner does not mean a person is no longer human with certain rights, so if a prisoner who has a genuine case appeals to the judiciary of the country he is being held in he has a right to be heard.
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I do agree with most of what you said, but especially this. And this is the major problem right now, most of these people haven't had trials, let alone a chance to appeal that decision, yet on the other hand I do believe that most of them are serious risks that we can't allow to return to their home countries, where they may be tried for their crimes, or they may be regaled as heroes. I just really wish the US would get off it's ass on this one and start showing some evidence, start some trials, prove that these people are involved.

I know, what I'm saying is contradictory, I don't want them released, I just want them tried for the crimes they supposedly perpetrated.
 
freako104 said:
AT nobody said the prisoners werent human. they are. they should be treated as such, BUT there is a reason they are in prison. and this will be a little off topic but I personally am for lessing the rights of the prisoners. nobody wants to have all their rights taken away.
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Yes, there is a reason for them being in prison, but it does happen that the reason they are there is false, they should be given the opportunity to prove that. I do not advocate of support continuous appeals because IMO if all avenues and resources have been exhausted and they could still not prove their case then they most likely did the crime and should do the time. However giving them less rights might rob them of that opportunity.

Which rights (under the US system) would you prefer they not have?

And no, I am not saying that prisoners should be afforded ALL the same rights as free citizens. For instance our government passed a bill today to amend the constitution and give prisoners the right to vote. I have serious issues with that.


PT said:
I do agree with most of what you said, but especially this. And this is the major problem right now, most of these people haven't had trials, let alone a chance to appeal that decision, yet on the other hand I do believe that most of them are serious risks that we can't allow to return to their home countries, where they may be tried for their crimes, or they may be regaled as heroes. I just really wish the US would get off it's ass on this one and start showing some evidence, start some trials, prove that these people are involved.
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PT, weren't / aren't the people at Guantanamo Beach mostly held as POW's? As such they do not get trials the way other prisoners do (until the state of war is over). I think with Bush openly declaring his so-called war on terrorism he has created a bit of a loophole because these people can be detained for as long as he sees fit without trial (according to the Geneva convention you could be a POW even if your country/party is not aware that it is at war).
 
Yes, there is a reason for them being in prison, but it does happen that the reason they are there is false, they should be given the opportunity to prove that. I do not advocate of support continuous appeals because IMO if all avenues and resources have been exhausted and they could still not prove their case then they most likely did the crime and should do the time. However giving them less rights might rob them of that opportunity.
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once again nobody said they cant try to appeal it or whatever they need to. they are and should be given that opportunity but again I stand by what I said. that there is a reason for it. justified? maybe maybe not. maybe some but not all.
 
The giving the prisoners the right to vote is just whack. What the fuck? They can't make decisions about thier own life, but we're going to let them make decisions about the government?

I'd say I mostly agree with Prof on this one, there shouldn't be TV's, one meal a day is a little harsh, I'd probably give two, but no choices in what you eat, you get what is served. Strippers? Where do they have them? 20 years of strippers for robbing a bank? Where do I get the gun?
 
PuterTutor said:
The giving the prisoners the right to vote is just whack. What the fuck? They can't make decisions about thier own life, but we're going to let them make decisions about the government?
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PT, I've said my bit about it in my blog so I'm going to refrain from commenting here.

(Added the link to it in case you get really bored and want to see what I said before going out to buy that gun)
 
pt said:
At this point, I don't think it's at all about what the prisoners want. They are prisoners, remember?

OH hey, that murderer doesn't want to serve the rest of his sentence, guess we better let him go....
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WTF? They haven't been tried or even accused of a crime, how is this the same?

Freak said:
this will sound cold on my part but they are prisoners as PT said. there is a reason for that. whatever the reason is there is one.
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and if I kidnap you you are a prisoner and there is a reason for it. That doesn't make it in anyway legal though.
AT said:
PT, weren't / aren't the people at Guantanamo Beach mostly held as POW's?
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Technically no, they have never been officially declared as POWs and therefore in the eyes of the GC and international law they aren't.
 
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