Honda Accord fuel/tranny problems

[rh71]

I don't know if this is a place for car problem troubleshooting, but I'm completely at a loss for what's going on so here goes (please move if inappropriate here):

Sporadically on local roads, the car doesnt seem to accelerate past 1st gear and at idle it seems to want to quit but never does. Check Engine light reveals LOW FUEL PRESSURE so a new fuel filter is installed. Everything is fine for 2 weeks but acts up again. Fuel filter looks fine (according to mechanic) and they cannot duplicate problem so they cannot fix it until it happens again.

Does anyone have any idea what this could be ?

1990 Honda Accord EX

 

[HomeLAN]

Scale in the gas tank?

 

[rh71]

Scale? What do you mean ?

 

[HomeLAN]

Little flakes of rust and crap in the tank. If it gets through the filter, it could be screwing with your carb/injectors.

It could also be something totally different.

 

[Professur]

Could be a high resistance in the wire to the fuel pump, or even the pump itself going for a shit. Could be a kink in the fuel line.

Did you ever let it run out of fuel? Hondas are a bastard for that.

 

[chcr]

Could be some kind of crap in the injectors too, intermittently occluding the nozzle. I've heard that thing about running Hondas out of gas too. It also ssems like I heard something about the Mass Airflow Sensor causing some of those symptoms (maybe it was the MAP Sensor). Kruz might know.

 

[rh71]

Actually you bring up a good point about letting it go near empty. I've got a habit for doing that to my truck and there's never been an adverse reaction from it, so I did it a few times to this Accord since I primarily drive that too now. On 2 different occasions, I've let the gas light come on before re-fueling.

So if that's what it is, will it simply go away if I keep it away from Empty as much as possible ?

Mechanic said the fuel pump isn't a likely culprit since that would involve the engine shutting down eventually... and I've gone 10 minutes driving in 1st gear alone (with hazard lights) and it all of a sudden became normal again... the engine never quit completely. He dis-counted the fuel pump failure thing.

I was reading up just now on the whole fuel management system and the ECU (computer) may also be a possible culprit, what do you think ?

 

[Professur]

I think you might wanna try a better mechanic.

 

[rh71]

Heh, too late for that now. Already gave him $320 in tune-up cost (which included changing the original fuel filter). I WILL go to a better guy next time, but the money is already exchanged so we'll stay with him until he wants money for a different problem/part. At least now he'll feel obligated to find our problem after this fiasco.

BUT, are you saying a fuel pump failure wouldn't cause the engine to cut out completely ? Does it sound like a tranny problem at all?

 

[chcr]

BUT, are you saying a fuel pump failure wouldn't cause the engine to cut out completely ?

Your mechanic is right about that, if the fuel pressure on an EFI car drops blow a certain minimum, it shuts off.

 

[Professur]

Ever listen to a computer fan fail? It'll drop in rpm from about 4500 to 1500 rpm. Idle like that until the bearing releases. Then pop back up to 3000 for a bit. It'll do that for days before the bearing finally craps out and the whole assembly fails. Electric fuel pumps do the same.

The worst thing is that most fuel pumps today are in the tank itself. They're kept immersed in gas to cool them. If you let the fuel level go down, they heat up. Constantly running with a low level is like overclocking your CPU. The life expectancy drops.

That's not to say that that's the problem. But I wouldn't just write it off without having at least looked at it as a possibility.

Do yourself a favour and email or PM Kruz. He's the real pro.

 

[Professur]

ROFL, I just found your thread at HWC about your CPU fan failing.



I swear, I didn't know.

 

[rh71]

Heh yeah, was about to say... I've been listening to the damn thing rumble under my desk for about 12 hours straight now and it's still humming at 5500RPM, loud as ever. Seriously. Already ordered a new one from Newegg.

I'll have to find out where the damn fuel pump is to see if I've been doing a bad bad thing then... but I'll definitely not do it again with the Honda...

 

[Kruz]

Ever listen to a computer fan fail? It'll drop in rpm from about 4500 to 1500 rpm. Idle like that until the bearing releases. Then pop back up to 3000 for a bit. It'll do that for days before the bearing finally craps out and the whole assembly fails. Electric fuel pumps do the same.

The worst thing is that most fuel pumps today are in the tank itself. They're kept immersed in gas to cool them. If you let the fuel level go down, they heat up. Constantly running with a low level is like overclocking your CPU. The life expectancy drops.

That's not to say that that's the problem. But I wouldn't just write it off without having at least looked at it as a possibility.

Do yourself a favour and email or PM Kruz. He's the real pro.

what prof says is correct... a fuel pump can fail by not giving enough "pressure" or "volume" of fuel. if the volume or pressure drop off by as little as 10psi, the engine can starve for gas. it may or may not stall the engine but it will show up when high engine load conditions are pressent. ie: hard acceleration, high rpm's etc.
also low fuel level in the tank can cause "cavatation". (air bubbles in the fuel pump). which will cause the same symptoms...

 

[rh71]

Thanks again for the replies. Well it's still happening very sporadically... warm or cold weather. Yesterday in 80F weather, we started up the car, drove fine on local roads for all of 2 minutes then the car didn't want to accelerate past 1st gear into 2nd again. When idling, it shakes and seems to want to die but never does, but not during the entire time it was idling... other times at idle, nothing would seem wrong.

New discovery was that after shutting the engine off, then turning back on, it would be fine again for a few minutes more.

Any further ideas based on this info ? Called Pep Boys to see if they'll take a look but they quickly said it sounds like a transmission problem and to take it to a transmission place instead. Well I'll tell ya that in PARK, hitting the gas, it didn't want to go above 2.5 (X1000) RPM... it waivers there, sometimes not even going above 1.5. That indicates it doesn't seem to be related to the transmission at all, does it ? It's in PARK.

Thanks for further ideas. I fear Pep Boys will charge me to do a fuel pressure/volume test ... so I'd like to get a clear idea of fuel delivery vs. transmission problem first.

 

[Kruz]

with a problem like this, you have to let the tech have the car untill he can duplacate the concern. with everything you've stated so far, I'd look close at the fuel dilivery system.

I fear Pep Boys will charge me to do a fuel pressure/volume test ... so I'd like to get a clear idea of fuel delivery vs. transmission problem first.

diagnostic tests have to be done! the "might be's" and "sounds like" will end up costing more money in the long run, I would have them hook up a fuel pressure gadge and drive it around untill it happens. sometimes you have to wait for the item to fail before the problem can be found.

 

[A.B.Normal]

How much is a new Fuel pump ,if your going to spend $$ on a test a new pump may be just as cheap.

Was gonna say vacuum leak or O2 ,but it wouldn't explain the low fuel indicator

 

[rh71]

We brought it into the Honda dealer because on the phone, the guy seemed knowledgeable about it. He asked questions like do I hear a click or do I notice a fresh fuel smell and less fuel efficiency. I noticed the latter two (though I didn't think it was necessary to mention here)... so he had my faith, at the least. He says that it's a possible sparkplug misfire... meaning it's not running on all 4 cylinders. So we brought it in tonight (hobbling all the way there, no doubt...) and he'll let us know by morning. I told him we just got a tune-up with new plugs and wires, but he said it's possible the independent shop didn't actually replace the plugs... we'll see to that later.


***UPDATE***
The guy from the dealer calls me back at 11pm (?!) just now when they should've closed at 9pm...

Need:
tranny $3k
o2 sensor $300 (check engine light revealed this)
shift cable $300

That's what they're saying... I don't know WTF is going on with this car anymore...

We bought it at $4500 almost 3 years ago... would you junk it and get back $100 at most for it ? What would you do ? We're so tired of throwing money into this car just to have more crap out...

Can a dealer possibly be scamming me on this ?

 

[Justintime]

Thats $3600 on a pile of future problems for a car worth $100 for junk, so basically about $8100 to blow overall + whatever more expenses you had on a $100 sell, toss it and use that $3600 on a better ride.

 

[PT]

Need:
tranny $3k
o2 sensor $300 (check engine light revealed this)
shift cable $300

That sounds like alot of money for a tranny. I'd look around, you should be able to have that done for around 1k, as for the o2 sensor and shift cable, sounds high too, but I'm not sure.