I kept saying this and the Libs, here, denied it.

ResearchMonkey said:
Yes minx, clearly you are an enlightened individual, wise and above all others. To me your brand of enlightenment is goobly-gook where someone finds ways to justify their own whacked belief system in aims of being hip.

Frankly, some of the most insane people I've ever known have been the over-educated who have been over-enlightened.

I think I'll stick with the real world in which I live, but thanx anyway buddy.
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this has nothing with me. it has to do with the relevant topic. the founders of the US and the founding documents were highly influenced by the enlightenment. read some fucking history. if you're willing to even bother to try to understand the shit you yourself are commenting on, then get lost... and nix the drama while you're at it.
 
2minkey said:
this has nothing with me. it has to do with the relevant topic. the founders of the US and the founding documents were highly influenced by the enlightenment. read some fucking history. if you're willing to even bother to try to understand the shit you yourself are commenting on, then get lost... and nix the drama while you're at it.
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I've read plenty enough homeboy. I have a great understanding of the founding fathers and their writings. It's quite clear there was to be no state sponsored religion such as there was in England. Without a doubt, the days of America rising was dominated with the Judeo Christian values system. There was little of the modern eastern influences nor was islam making any ground here. You seem to implying one cannot get enlightenment via the judeo-christian religions. Being good christian was hip.

Isn't it interesting; While we don't have a national religion, we do have a National Cathedral?
 
ResearchMonkey said:
I've read plenty enough homeboy. I have a great understanding of the founding fathers and their writings. It's quite clear there was to be no state sponsored religion such as there was in England. Without a doubt, the days of America rising was dominated with the Judeo Christian values system. There was little of the modern eastern influences nor was islam making any ground here. You seem to implying one cannot get enlightenment via the judeo-christian religions. Being good christian was hip.
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this has nothing to do with islam or "the modern eastern influences." you're confusing enlightenment with the enlightenment. which means you have little understanding of the founding fathers and where their ideas came from.

here, read about locke. i dare you to read the whole thing.
 
I have provided plenty of evidence, mink. But you and spike just ignore them.

Two historians at the University of Houston did a 10-year study of the ideas that shaped our republic. They started with 15,000 documents from the Colonial era, which were boiled down to 3,154 statements. The three most quoted individuals were French philosopher Montesquieu (8.3%), English jurist William Blackstone (7.9%) and English philosopher John Locke (2.9%). But Biblical citations dwarfed them all. Ninety-four percent of the founding fathers' quotes were based on the Bible -- 34% directly from its pages and 60% from men who had used the Bible to arrive at their conclusions.

Source: Donald S. Lutz, “The Relative Influence of European Writers on Late Eighteenth-Century American Political Thought,” 78 American Political Science Review 189 (1984), 189-197 as quoted by Eidsmoe in “The Framers of the Constitution: Christians or Deists?,” 3, referring to research done by Professors Lutz and Charles S. Hyneman. John Eidsmoe is a constitutional law professor at Faulkner University in Montgomery, Alabama.
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2minkey said:
here, read about locke. i dare you to read the whole thing.
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now, wait a minute ... are you daring me to read the WHOLE WIKI PAGE on John Locke? I will have to tell my wife to move aside that dog-eared copy of Leviathan she keeps beside the toilet with all the yellow stickies in it!

The battle for my mind...A man only has so much time.

You're aware you defeat your own argument citing Locke, right?
 
Gotholic said:
I have provided plenty of evidence, mink. But you and spike just ignore them.
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Nope, I've addressed all your posts. You, on the other hand, keep ignoring simple questions.

"And declaring us not a christian nation would change what?"
 
Gotholic said:
I have provided plenty of evidence, mink. But you and spike just ignore them.
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you've provided evidence that folks happened to be christians. you've provided nothing about the foundational ideas behind, say, the declaration of independence, which has it's philosophical roots stemming directly from enlightenment-era thought. i don't care what your so-called evidence says. we could do a study of documents right now and conclude that romance novels are the basis of our civilization, because there's just so many of those things in print.

next you're going to claim that capitalism is a christian invention. i mean, golly, lots of capitalists have been christian. :retard:
 
2minkey said:
oh? how's that?
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Have you even read Locke?

Locke was a believer. Locke believed that a "higher power" was what guided man, and man was good. He was strong in the thought; While there should be no state sponsored religion, he also believed the the JudeoChristian belief system was what guides good men, men like elected politicians. he believed that there were many forms of the JudeoChristian belief system and not any of them was more correct than any other brand. He liked the idea of many different brands of JudeoChristian religion working together supporting their own brand in the government for the people. He saw an equualibruim being reached as the debates and establishment developed.

Hobb's on the other hand didn't buy that man was good like that. He believed that good men would indulge themselves once they had the powah in their grimey-mitts. He felt that men of strong JudeoChristian faith would stray from their beliefs once they tasted the power they had. Hobb's wanted a very strict legal code to govern by. He didn't trust men to govern by those good JudeoChristian values.

You can see that we use a little of both in our nations foundation. But then again, these guys aren't our founding fathers are they?

I've got a date with a hammock this week-end. i look forward to you educating me on this.

Have a great weekend my friend.


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ResearchMonkey said:
Have you even read Locke?

Locke was a believer. Locke believed that a "higher power" was what guided man, and man was good. He was strong in the thought; While there should be no state sponsored religion, he also believed the the JudeoChristian belief system was what guides good men, men like elected politicians. he believed that there were many forms of the JudeoChristian belief system and not any of them was more correct than any other brand. He liked the idea of many different brands of JudeoChristian religion working together supporting their own brand in the government for the people. He saw an equualibruim being reached as the debates and establishment developed.

Hobb's on the other hand didn't buy that man was good like that. He believed that good men would indulge themselves once they had the powah in their grimey-mitts. He felt that men of strong JudeoChristian faith would stray from their beliefs once they tasted the power they had. Hobb's wanted a very strict legal code to govern by. He didn't trust men to govern by those good JudeoChristian values.

You can see that we use a little of both in our nations foundation. But then again, these guys aren't our founding fathers are they?

I've got a date with a hammock this week-end. i look forward to you educating me on this.

Have a great weekend my friend.
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no, locke was not a founding father, but some of his ideas certainly did influence the founding fathers.

locke may have rooted some of his ideas in his faith, but his faith is not what is important as far as him being a contributor of enlightenment ideas, but rather a 'survival' of previous ways of thinking.

ever hear of deism? locke wasn't a deist, but many of his successors were, who carried some of his other ideas along. you seem to have a very unidimensional understanding of locke. but, then, you want him to represent something particular that you believe in, rather than approaching the matter dispassionately.

next you're going to try to tell us that voltaire's ideas all stem from the fact that he happened to have a basic belief in a creator god, and by that are "christian."

enjoy your hammock. i'm going to go get shit-faced in a couple hours...
 
spike said:
So being a christian nation or not changes nothing. Who gives a shit then and why?
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Being a Christian nation and declaring to be a Christian nation are two different things.

By the way, Obama declared the U.S. "no longer a Christian nation". But by doing so, he admits we once were a Christian nation.
 
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