I kept saying this and the Libs, here, denied it.

Gotholic said:
People who do not want to have any religious connotation will omit "the year of our Lord". This was the case during the French Revolution when France went secular. They did omit that phrase from their documents.
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Both governments of France and the USA are secular governments.

AD is just a common calendar reference. It doesn't mean anything else. We currently live in the year 2010 AD. Using this calendar does not mean that I am a deist.

It is no blog. Jefferson's letter was a personal letter. I do not think a Constitutional Historian is needed.

Source
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A Constitutional Historian would be a better source for the information you're looking for. Not a theologian who has a mission and agenda.

Although Jefferson was firm in his own religious conviction, and was a deist, he held firm to the belief that there must be a clear separation between Church and State. That was the message of the Wall of Separation Letter.

Jefferson's letter was a reply to the Danbury Baptist Association, not necessarily a personal letter (of one person to another) but rather a politician's response to a group of petitioners. He consulted others to write it. He wanted to convey the message that "it was not the place of the Congress or the Executive to do anything that might be misconstrued as the establishment of religion."
 
2minkey said:
it is not christian ideas that the constitution springs from. the leading ideas of the day were not christian in nature.

i think we are seeing the benefits here of a christian internet education. :retard:
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Nice spin minx.

USA was founded upon JudeoChristian values. Thanks to those who have laxed morality and time tested deviant behaviors, they are trying to eradicate this fact in the name of diversity and tolerance (of traditionally frowned upon behaviors).

Sorry you folks can't reach that high bar. Enjoy your self-rationalization to excuse your own personality defects.

Simply put: I do not and will not accept much of what you folks demand that I must accept.
 
valkyrie said:
He wanted to convey the message that "it was not the place of the Congress or the Executive to do anything that might be misconstrued as the establishment of religion."
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...and to this very day, there is no official brand of church of the USA.

ie: Church of England
 
jimpeel said:
But the laws thereof are based on Christian religious teachings.
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No, they are based on enlightenment values and values almost all religions share.

A veiled ad hom.
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"if you pee'd in his ear, he would claim it was only raining."

"Ignorance IS bliss, enjoy your evening."

"Spike, you're going to hell! You know that, right?"

Actual ad homs.
 
jimpeel said:
But the laws thereof are based on Christian religious teachings.
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yeah, okay. and the earliest well known set of laws handed down in writing was the code of hammurabi from prolly a couple thousand years before jebus. so really, it's all based on pagan babylonian stuff.

wait, do ya think maybe other non-christian peoples might have some stuff about not plooking your neighbor's dog, er, wife?

ever hear of english common law?
 
Lord, I feel like I'm discussing this topic with L. Ron Hubbard himself.

It's simple really, stretch it all you like.

1279752853420.jpg


Feels good man.
 
RE: Hammurabi: Those are the earliest written law (eye for an eye, etc) found to date, but doubtless there were oral traditions before then as well. But yeah, Jeebus was definitely a johnny-come-lately.
 
Of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 51 were Orthodox Christians.

Source: M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company (Marlborough, New Hampshire: Plymouth Rock Foundation, 1982), v-vi as quoted by John Eidsmoe 1987 “The Framers of the Constitution: Christians or Deists?” CWA Newsletter (July):3.

In 1776, 98% of the population was Protestant Christian, 1.8% Catholic Christian, and .2 of 1% Jewish. That means that 99.8% of the people in America in 1776 professed to be Christians.

Source: Benjamin Hart, “The Wall That Protestantism Built: The Religious Reasons for the Separation of Church and State”, Policy Review (Fall 1988), 44 as quoted by D. James Kennedy and Jerry Newcombe in What If Jesus Had never Been Born?, revised edition (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 2001) 70.
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To say that "In the year of our Lord" meant nothing, i.e., Jesus is not our Lord, when that phrase was written down cannot be true. The phrase is nothing more than an acknowledgment.

To say the Enlightenment played more of a role than Christianity in shaping our Republic is not true considering...

Two historians at the University of Houston did a 10-year study of the ideas that shaped our republic. They started with 15,000 documents from the Colonial era, which were boiled down to 3,154 statements. The three most quoted individuals were French philosopher Montesquieu (8.3%), English jurist William Blackstone (7.9%) and English philosopher John Locke (2.9%). But Biblical citations dwarfed them all. Ninety-four percent of the founding fathers' quotes were based on the Bible -- 34% directly from its pages and 60% from men who had used the Bible to arrive at their conclusions.

Source: Donald S. Lutz, “The Relative Influence of European Writers on Late Eighteenth-Century American Political Thought,” 78 American Political Science Review 189 (1984), 189-197 as quoted by Eidsmoe in “The Framers of the Constitution: Christians or Deists?,” 3, referring to research done by Professors Lutz and Charles S. Hyneman. John Eidsmoe is a constitutional law professor at Faulkner University in Montgomery, Alabama.

Church in the U.S. Capitol

The Continental Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war.

The first national government of the United States, was convinced that the "public prosperity" of a society depended on the vitality of its religion. Nothing less than a "spirit of universal reformation among all ranks and degrees of our citizens," Congress declared to the American people, would "make us a holy, that so we may be a happy people."

Source

Our unique checks-and-balances system of government would never have been conceived through secularism. For example, the 3 Branches of Government is based on Isaiah 33:22. The separation of powers is based on Jeremiah 17:9. Tax exemption of churches is based on Ezra 7:24. Repeatedly in early congressional records, the Bible was used as the premise for discussions and law making. For example, the Congressional Record of September 25, 1789 sites that a discussion of II Chronicles 6 led to the declaring of the first Thanksgiving holiday.

Source

In his first inaugural address, President Washington's stated, "It would be improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplication to that Almighty Being.... No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men more than people of the United States.... We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven cannot be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained." It concluded with a church service at Saint Paul's Chapel, led by the chaplains of Congress.

Source

"... prior to 1789 (the year that eleven of the thirteen states ratified the Constitution), many of the states still had constitutional requirements that a man must be a Christian in order to hold public office."

Source
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Now, Val, Jefferson's letter only meant to assure that the U.S. will not have its own church like the Church of England. Jefferson's actions contradict any other interpretation of his letter. Just look at what Jefferson did...

VARIOUS FACTS ABOUT THOMAS JEFFERSON

• Jefferson urged local governments to make land available specifically for Christian purposes. Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Bishop Carroll on September 3, 1801 (in the Library of Congress, #19966).

• In an 1803 federal Indian treaty, Jefferson willingly agreed to provide $300 to “assist the said Kaskaskia tribe in the erection of a church” and to provide “annually for seven years $100 towards the support of a Catholic priest.” He also signed three separate acts setting aside government lands for the sole use of religious groups and setting aside government lands so that Moravian missionaries might be assisted in “promoting Christianity.” Source: American State Papers, Walter Lowrie and Matthew St. Claire Clarke, editors (Washington, D. C.: Gales and Seaton, 1832), Vol. IV, p. 687; see also Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U. S. 38, at 103 (1985), Rehnquist, J. (dissenting); see also, The Public Statutes at Large of the United States of America, Richard Peters, editor (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1846), Vol. VII, p. 79, Article III, “A Treaty Between the United States and the Kaskaskia Tribe of Indians,” December 23, 1803; Vol. VII, p. 88, Article IV, “Treaty with the Wyandots, etc.,” 1805; Vol. VII, p. 102, Article II, “Treaty with the Cherokees,” 1806.

• When Washington D. C. became the national capital in 1800, Congress voted that the Capitol building would also serve as a church building. Source: Debates and Proceedings of the Congress of the United States (Washington: Gales and Seaton, 1853), Sixth Congress, p. 797, December 4, 1800.

• President Jefferson chose to attend church each Sunday at the Capitol. Source: See the records recently reprinted by James Hutson, Chief of the Manuscript Division of the Library of Congress. Religion and the Founding of the American Republic (Washington, D. C.: Library of Congress, 1998), p. 84.

• Jefferson even provided the service with paid government musicians to assist in its worship. Source: Id. at 89.

• Jefferson also began similar Christian services in his own Executive Branch, both at the Treasury Building and at the War Office. Source: Id. at 89; see also John Quincy Adams, Memoirs of John Quincy Adams, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott & Co., 1874), Vol. I, p. 265, October 23, 1803.

• Jefferson praised the use of a local courthouse as a meeting place for Christian services. Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XV, p. 404, to Dr. Thomas Cooper on November 2, 1822.

• Jefferson assured a Christian religious school that it would receive “the patronage of the government”. Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to the Nuns of the Order of St. Ursula at New Orleans on May 15, 1804, original in possession of the New Orleans Parish.

• Jefferson proposed that the Great Seal of the United States depict a story from the Bible and include the word “God” in its motto. Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Julian P. Boyd, editor (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1950), Vol. I, pp. 494-497, from “Report on a Seal for the United States, with Related Papers,” August 20, 1776; See also this article.
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Oh, and did you know all 50 state constitutions acknowledge God?
 
spike said:
It was a common phrase. It means nothing except the date. Yes, tons of religious people say "bless you" when people sneeze. Thanks for the example.
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No atheist says it.

spike said:
If you are unwilling to discuss what actual real world changes this debate affects then you have no reason to be in this discussion.
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You consider yourself a christian. Since you do, how can I discuss the effects of Christianity?

spike said:
You can omit AD as well because people know what you're referring to but adding either does not mean you're making some religious statement.
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It depends on your intent. France had the intent. The following year they abolished the Christian calendar and had the "Republican" calendar.
 
Gotholic said:
No atheist says it.
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Well that was easy to prove wrong.

You consider yourself a christian. Since you do, how can I discuss the effects of Christianity?
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I'm asking you a pretty straight forward question. If right now we passed a bill declaring the US a christian nation what would actually change vs. us passing a bill declaring it not a christian nation.

What real world things do you see actually changing?

Quit avoiding the question.

It depends on your intent. France had the intent. The following year they abolished the Christian calendar and had the "Republican" calendar.
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Who cares what France did. Fact is the phrase indicates a date in time. There's no further meaning to be read into it. The obvious intent of the statement was to indicate a date.
 
Why would we pass a law declaring the U.S. a Christian Nation? It's common knowledge.

However its unconstitutional to declare any specific brand as the official 'brand' of the state. Think of it as "diversity".

Do you still believe Obamasan is a Constitutional Scholar? Keep spinning buddy.
 
the U.S. is a Christian Nation Not a Muslim one thank Gawd

Originally Posted by Winky
-My recommendation, assassinate the jigga-boo and be done with it.
 
ResearchMonkey said:
Why would we pass a law declaring the U.S. a Christian Nation? It's common knowledge.
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It's common knowledge that it's not a christian nation.

Do you still believe Obamasan is a Constitutional Scholar? Keep spinning buddy.
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Are you trying to change the subject because you don't have any facts to back up your argument? It's pretty transparent.
 
spike said:
It's common knowledge that it's not a christian nation.
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It's common commie-goo-boy knowledge, we just call it liberal fantsy.

The United States was founded upon Judeo-Christian values. Only a fuck-wit would believe otherwise.

You don't have to be a bible thumping Christian to understand this fact. You just have to abide by a moral code that time has proven. Yes, we know why you fight the moral norms.

You really need an umbrella, even on those sunny days.
 
I see that there have been no posts actually addressing my assertions about the use of the phrase "Anno Domini" in the constitution, only attempts to change the subject and post homophobic memes, so I will take that to mean that both Gotholic and ResearchMonkey have realized that I am correct and have conceded their rational arguments against it. Good day to both of you, and I look forward to the next time I have the opportunity to impart a little bit of wisdom into your skewed viewpoints.
 
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