Interpretation of the Bible re: Who is saved and who isn't.

[MrBishop]

IMHO - The Bible is not a historical document. It is neither meant to be taken as a verbatim account of what was said/done during the biblical period, nor as a example of the exact words of God or Jesus. The Bible is the written text of an oral tradition originally spoken in Synagogues, meant to pass down morals and relate everyday events as it related to the teachings of the Jews and the Christ Followers (Christians). All the stories are allegories, meant to represent abstract ideas such as good, evil, fairness, justice, etc... such as they were in the 1st century, when the books were written.

As such...and considering that the Bible has not changed, but time has gone bye and people have changed, I suggest that the Bible is anachronistic if interpreted verbatim, but useful as a series of allegories if taken in the modern context.

I would like to offer anyone reading the first shot. In terms of your view of the Bible...whom is saved? I shall reply in kind and hopefully...this won't degrade any more than necessary.

 

[freako104]

I dont think the Bible is accurate in terms of historical records. Nor do I believe in it much. But if I understand correctly those that are "saved" are the ones who accept Jesus as saviour.

 

[Gato_Solo]

The differentiation lies in the acceptance of Jesus as your personal savior. To do this, you must first know of him. If you do not know him, then you are judged by a different standard than if you do. After all...it's not your fault if you've never heard of Jesus. If you have heard of Jesus, and then make a conscious choice to reject his philosophy, then you are not saved, and, no matter how well you live your life, you cannot be entered into heaven.

 

[chcr]

The differentiation lies in the acceptance of Jesus as your personal savior. To do this, you must first know of him. If you do not know him, then you are judged by a different standard than if you do. After all...it's not your fault if you've never heard of Jesus. If you have heard of Jesus, and then make a conscious choice to reject his philosophy, then you are not saved, and, no matter how well you live your life, you cannot be entered into heaven.

That is exactly as I understand it. Well put. Everyone wants to add an interpretation, but you either believe or you don't. People who pay lip service "just in case" really piss me off.

 

[tonksy]

who is saved? well...if you are a christian who believes that heaven is only for christians then you think that you must accept jesus in order to have a relationship with god and get into heaven. i am a christain but i don't buy it. i tend to think of god as a benevolent benefactor that who will allow entrance to heaven to those (regardless of declared religion) that are pure of spirit, those that strive to be a good person and do good unto others. those that are aware and atone for their sins, while striving to be accepting of the human nature in others...in other words, i believe that most of the people that banty about religion ain't got a chance in hell of getting there. anyone can say, "hey, i love jesus"...but if you don't act according it means nothing.

 

[Gato_Solo]

who is saved? well...if you are a christian who believes that heaven is only for christians then you think that you must accept jesus in order to have a relationship with god and get into heaven. i am a christain but i don't buy it. i tend to think of god as a benevolent benefactor that who will allow entrance to heaven to those (regardless of declared religion) that are pure of spirit, those that strive to be a good person and do good unto others. those that are aware and atone for their sins, while striving to be accepting of the human nature in others...in other words, i believe that most of the people that banty about religion ain't got a chance in hell of getting there. anyone can say, "hey, i love jesus"...but if you don't act according it means nothing.

Re-read my post.

 

[tonksy]

Re-read my post.

ack...you beat me to it is all...takes me a while to type some serious stuff...kids and all

 

[paul_valaru]

it's all a matter of preception

 

[Oz]

Everyone who'll spend a lifetime on their knees, blessing God for all that goes well and blaming humanity (the "free will" clause was an excellent idea of His) for everything that goes badly goes to heaven..........the rest all spend eternity in a nice warm firery hell

Personally I find the idea of spending eternity worshipping some being in heaven.....under the watchfull eye of heavily armed angels....to be less than apealing.

As to how relevant the allegorical aspects of the Bible are today.......go out and ask ten Christians what the Bible has taught them.........I'd be very surprised of you didn't get ten different (of varying extremes) answers

Oz
Off to Tir Nan Og (eventually)

 

[MrBishop]

The differentiation lies in the acceptance of Jesus as your personal savior. To do this, you must first know of him. If you do not know him, then you are judged by a different standard than if you do. After all...it's not your fault if you've never heard of Jesus. If you have heard of Jesus, and then make a conscious choice to reject his philosophy, then you are not saved, and, no matter how well you live your life, you cannot be entered into heaven.

There are two things that are coming out of this statement that ring wrong with me.

What does it mean to reject his philosophy? If the philosophy means: do good, the 10 commandments (which aren't Jesus'), turn the other cheek etc... then, I'd say that even non-Christians follow the philosophy despite not believing in Jesus or having read his teachings. If by 'follow his teachings', you mean getting baptised, not working on Sunday, going to church, praying to God...then an awful lot of people just aren't going to get to heaven.

What happened to the Jews? Up until Jesus came along...and even up until his martyrdom through the crucifixion, the Jews were God's chosen people. By not being Christians, are all Jews now fallen from favour and doomed to Hell and eternal damnation? They still follow the bible...the first few books plus a foursome of new testament books (Kings 1&2 and ....forget now), aand read them more regularly than Christians do.

 

[Gato_Solo]

There are two things that are coming out of this statement that ring wrong with me.

What does it mean to reject his philosophy? If the philosophy means: do good, the 10 commandments (which aren't Jesus'), turn the other cheek etc... then, I'd say that even non-Christians follow the philosophy despite not believing in Jesus or having read his teachings. If by 'follow his teachings', you mean getting baptised, not working on Sunday, going to church, praying to God...then an awful lot of people just aren't going to get to heaven.

What happened to the Jews? Up until Jesus came along...and even up until his martyrdom through the crucifixion, the Jews were God's chosen people. By not being Christians, are all Jews now fallen from favour and doomed to Hell and eternal damnation? They still follow the bible...the first few books plus a foursome of new testament books (Kings 1&2 and ....forget now), aand read them more regularly than Christians do.

The main thrust is that you must accept Jesus as your personal savior. That is also called faith. If you don't have that, then you don't have the reason for the religion in the first place...I've also stated that, if you've never heard of Jesus, then that part doesn't apply. By not accepting Jesus, you do not accept his forgiveness, so you do not go to heaven. I thought it was fairly simple. As for those of the Jewish religion, they do not believe that Jesus was the son of God, but they have their own ways, which I do not know about. I don't claim to know every religion, and I do not claim to know every way of worship, so I stick to what I know. Also...I never said that the Jews had fallen from God's favor. After all...Jesus was a Jew as well...He just opened up the Jewish religion to anybody who wanted to belong.

 

[MrBishop]

Also...I never said that the Jews had fallen from God's favor. After all...Jesus was a Jew as well...He just opened up the Jewish religion to anybody who wanted to belong.

The problem is that Jews aren't Christians, don't follow his teachings perse, and therefore 'have fallen from grace' and will not be saved.

part deux- Is Christianinty thus an extension of Judaism, or a more open form of Judaism? Are all Christinas merely Jews with more open arms?

Jews have been looked down upon by Christinas for a very long time, because they don't believe in Jesus as the son of God.

It still begs the question....do ONLY Christians go to heaven? Do only Roman Catholics go to heaven (according to the Pope)?
Do protestant Christians get to go too? What about Anglicans(Episcopalians), Lutherans, Evangelicals or Baptists...?

 

[Gato_Solo]

The problem is that Jews aren't Christians, don't follow his teachings perse, and therefore 'have fallen from grace' and will not be saved.

Wrong answer...The Jews were promised in the Torah that some of them would go to heaven.

part deux- Is Christianinty thus an extension of Judaism, or a more open form of Judaism? Are all Christinas merely Jews with more open arms?

No, and yes...to a certain extent. Dogma has diluted and changed the original teachings enough so that modern Christians no longer adhere to what once was.

Jews have been looked down upon by Christinas for a very long time, because they don't believe in Jesus as the son of God.

It still begs the question....do ONLY Christians go to heaven? Do only Roman Catholics go to heaven (according to the Pope)?
Do protestant Christians get to go too? What about Anglicans(Episcopalians), Lutherans, Evangelicals or Baptists...?

Because, for a long time, the Pope stated that Jews killed Christ, totally ignoring the fact that it was the Romans who did the actual crucifixion. This was, of course, after Christianity startd to become European, thus taking on European standards.
That's what they think, but the promise was for all who accept...not just Roman Catholics.

As a side-item...The reason science is so pre-eminent in todays society is because of the Catholic churches stance on quite a few things in the beginning. To be blunt...the modern church is nothing at all like the early church. If you truly want to see what the early church was like, you should study Islam.

 

[Squiggy]

Ive been to heaven...It didn't last....

 

[Gato_Solo]

Ive been to heaven...It didn't last....

Perhaps, next time, you won't have kids...

 

[MrBishop]

Wrong answer...The Jews were promised in the Torah that some of them would go to heaven.

Yeah..and in the Qu''aran (sp), only Muslim's got to heaven... We're talking about the bible here, though and the interpretation of the bible. In there...it's 'followers of christ'.

No, and yes...to a certain extent. Dogma has diluted and changed the original teachings enough so that modern Christians no longer adhere to what once was.

Most modern Christians...I'd still say that quite a few still try to follow the Bible verbatim... people who use the bible against homosexuals, for one.

Because, for a long time, the Pope stated that Jews killed Christ, totally ignoring the fact that it was the Romans who did the actual crucifixion. This was, of course, after Christianity startd to become European, thus taking on European standards.
That's what they think, but the promise was for all who accept...not just Roman Catholics.

The Pop released a letter in 2001, stating that only Roman Catholics go to heaven, and the 'lost children' which represented the protestants better shape up or else. I'll try to look up the name of the doc or post a link.

As a side-item...The reason science is so pre-eminent in todays society is because of the Catholic churches stance on quite a few things in the beginning. To be blunt...the modern church is nothing at all like the early church. If you truly want to see what the early church was like, you should study Islam.

Indeed... which is why I'm saying that taking the bible literally menas that you're taking it out of context and anachronistically.

 

[paul_valaru]

The main thrust is that you must accept Jesus as your personal savior. That is also called faith. If you don't have that, then you don't have the reason for the religion in the first place...I've also stated that, if you've never heard of Jesus, then that part doesn't apply. By not accepting Jesus, you do not accept his forgiveness, so you do not go to heaven. I thought it was fairly simple. As for those of the Jewish religion, they do not believe that Jesus was the son of God, but they have their own ways, which I do not know about. I don't claim to know every religion, and I do not claim to know every way of worship, so I stick to what I know. Also...I never said that the Jews had fallen from God's favor. After all...Jesus was a Jew as well...He just opened up the Jewish religion to anybody who wanted to belong.

what if you heard of him (I heard of him) but you don't beleive in him (I'm Jewish)

where do I go when I die?

Gato was right, we don't beleive he is the son of god, in fact we don't beleive he ever existed.

Jesus was a Jew, and became a Rabbi (teacher, not preist, don't get them confused) of his own sect, that welcomed anyone, and that evolved over the years into christianity. (this being the historical version, not the relgious one.

 

[Winky]

It ain't so I tell ya.

Due to my extreme view of theism
I am unable to post in this thread
Oh no wait I just did.

 

[Gato_Solo]

what if you heard of him (I heard of him) but you don't beleive in him (I'm Jewish)

where do I go when I die?

According to Christian dogma, you go to hell...unless you ar one of God's chosen few who will go to heaven regardless.

Gato was right, we don't beleive he is the son of god, in fact we don't beleive he ever existed.

I've met a few rabbi's who'd argue that point with you.

Jesus was a Jew, and became a Rabbi (teacher, not preist, don't get them confused) of his own sect, that welcomed anyone, and that evolved over the years into christianity. (this being the historical version, not the relgious one.

My point, exactly...Would you like to explain Orthodox Judaism? I believe that's where early Christians got their laws for behavior.

 

[paul_valaru]

explain orthadox judism?

I can't type that much, lol

just figure take the old testement, that is the torah


the rules and laws are like 6000 years old, but the biggest one you might have heard is

"eye for an eye"


rabbis that would disagree, I know some that would disagree as well, but as a whole, I find them very disagreeable anyway.

Plus they are the teachers, the real holy guys are the cantors