Interpretation of the Bible re: Who is saved and who isn't.

[Gato_Solo]

explain orthadox judism?

I can't type that much, lol

just figure take the old testement, that is the torah


the rules and laws are like 6000 years old, but the biggest one you might have heard is

"eye for an eye"


rabbis that would disagree, I know some that would disagree as well, but as a whole, I find them very disagreeable anyway.

Plus they are the teachers, the real holy guys are the cantors

So now you get exactly what I'm saying. Early Christianity was a sect of Judaism. As was early Islam. It's just that the rules for Islam haven't changed "with the times".

 

[RDX]

As for the original question,

I belive that much of the Bible is historically accurate and can be taken quite literally. Much of the old testament gives us a historical destription of the Jewish people. The books between Joshua and Ester were written in a very historical contex, and I believe they should be interpreted that way. The books like from Psalms to the Song of Songs were clearly not written as historical documents, but rather as Poetic books. Books such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Obdadiah, Revalation, etc were written as prophetic books. For the most part, they do not give historical records, but rather phrophisy (sp) on future events (some people would argue that a few of them are actually historical books written in an allagorical sense).

I don't believe that the Bible should be taken in its entirety literally or allagorically, or any other way. It's separated into different books, depending on the author and the theme. Some of the books have a historical theme to them (listings of family trees, chronological descriptions), some were written as moral guides. The Bible was composed by dozens of authors spanning thousands of years. Thus, I belive that the Bible contains important readings in all areas, from moral theory to historical facts.

The differentiation lies in the acceptance of Jesus as your personal savior. To do this, you must first know of him. If you do not know him, then you are judged by a different standard than if you do. After all...it's not your fault if you've never heard of Jesus. If you have heard of Jesus, and then make a conscious choice to reject his philosophy, then you are not saved, and, no matter how well you live your life, you cannot be entered into heaven.

This is a very favored view of salvation by many Christians. It makes Christianity both exclusive, but at the same time it gives everyone a fair chance.

i tend to think of god as a benevolent benefactor that who will allow entrance to heaven to those (regardless of declared religion) that are pure of spirit, those that strive to be a good person and do good unto others. those that are aware and atone for their sins, while striving to be accepting of the human nature in others...in other words, i believe that most of the people that banty about religion ain't got a chance in hell of getting there. anyone can say, "hey, i love jesus"...but if you don't act according it means nothing.

What part of the Bible do you base this view off of? As far as I can tell, the Bible strongly states that Christianity is an exclusive religion. (Mt 5:20, Ro 3:9-24, Eph 2:4-10)

A lot of people have a problem with Christianity being exclusive. What makes this different from any other religion? Don't they all have their exclusive aspects?

Personally I find the idea of spending eternity worshipping some being in heaven.....under the watchfull eye of heavily armed angels....to be less than apealing.

I suppose the other place is much more appealing?

As to how relevant the allegorical aspects of the Bible are today.......go out and ask ten Christians what the Bible has taught them.........I'd be very surprised of you didn't get ten different (of varying extremes) answers

I would expect the same. That being said, there is so much to gather from studying the Bible, that it would be very unlikely for 2 people to answer the same. People have devoted their entire lives to studying this book. With so much to gleam from it, why would everyone get the very same principles?

The problem is that Jews aren't Christians, don't follow his teachings perse, and therefore 'have fallen from grace' and will not be saved.

As best as I can tell yes. But let's not forget that many of the Christians in the early church were Jewish. Christianity was presented first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

part deux- Is Christianinty thus an extension of Judaism, or a more open form of Judaism? Are all Christinas merely Jews with more open arms?

I would say it's more of an extension to Judaism.

It still begs the question....do ONLY Christians go to heaven? Do only Roman Catholics go to heaven (according to the Pope)?

Again, I perceive Christianity to be an exclusive religion. It does not matter if a person is a Catholic or a Luthern or a Baptist, what matters is whether or not they accept Christ's redemption.

what if you heard of him (I heard of him) but you don't beleive in him (I'm Jewish) where do I go when I die?

As I interpret the teachings of Christianity, not heaven. Others might argue differently. BTW, I am not Jewish but I am a Christian. According to your view, where do I go when I die?

Due to my extreme view of theism I am unable to post in this thread

Go for it. As long as you are respectful, I don't see any reason why you should hold back (no matter how radical you perceive your view).

 

[Oz]

I suppose the other place is much more appealing?

Than eternity grovelling at the feet of some powerfull being because if you don't he'll use his power to punish you? ........ infinitely more apealing. And it's other places or for some. no place at all.

I would expect the same. That being said, there is so much to gather from studying the Bible, that it would be very unlikely for 2 people to answer the same. People have devoted their entire lives to studying this book. With so much to gleam from it, why would everyone get the very same principles?

Exactly. The old testament seemed very specific as to how God should be worshiped. The New Testament contradicted the old and offered new principles for His worship......and through the glories of human intervention...the bible has also been edited/added to and became the highly acceptable king james version that is gathering dust on a million different bookshelves in millions of homes.

So who's right and who is wrong.........without a lil' divine intervention, it's impossible to say.

 

[freako104]

Wrong answer...The Jews were promised in the Torah that some of them would go to heaven.



No, and yes...to a certain extent. Dogma has diluted and changed the original teachings enough so that modern Christians no longer adhere to what once was.



Because, for a long time, the Pope stated that Jews killed Christ, totally ignoring the fact that it was the Romans who did the actual crucifixion. This was, of course, after Christianity startd to become European, thus taking on European standards.
That's what they think, but the promise was for all who accept...not just Roman Catholics.

As a side-item...The reason science is so pre-eminent in todays society is because of the Catholic churches stance on quite a few things in the beginning. To be blunt...the modern church is nothing at all like the early church. If you truly want to see what the early church was like, you should study Islam.

It was the Romans that did it but the Jews betrayed Jesus and according to what has been said I think in the Bible is that they set some criminal free and had Jesus killed

 

[RDX]

Than eternity grovelling at the feet of some powerfull being because if you don't he'll use his power to punish you? ........ infinitely more apealing. And it's other places or for some. no place at all.

Umm...that sure doesn't sound like the way the Bible portrays it. Sometimes we think that the best experiences here on earth are the best period. If one believes that there is life after this life, why should he conclude that we will experience the same emotions? Our enviroment would be so radically different, can we really hopothesize what it would be like?

Exactly. The old testament seemed very specific as to how God should be worshiped. The New Testament contradicted the old and offered new principles for His worship

Hardly, people think that the old testament strictly portrays a God of wrath and vengence, while the new testament portrays a God of love and forgiveness. God's characterics of both justice and love are portrayed many times throughout both the old and the new testament. But the way that we can communicate with God has changed according to the Bible. We no longer need to offer animal sacrifices for our sin. God is accessable to every believer through Christ. Because Christ came, our relationship with God changed, and thus the way he is worshiped has also changed.

and through the glories of human intervention...the bible has also been edited/added to and became the highly acceptable king james version that is gathering dust on a million different bookshelves in millions of homes.

Edited and added by removing or adding books to the Bible. They did not go through the Bible line by line and change things that they did not like. We lose some of the exact meaning in the translation process, but that is enevitable.

 

[Camelyn]

Hardly, people think that the old testament strictly portrays a God of wrath and vengence, while the new testament portrays a God of love and forgiveness. God's characterics of both justice and love are portrayed many times throughout both the old and the new testament. But the way that we can communicate with God has changed according to the Bible. We no longer need to offer animal sacrifices for our sin. God is accessable to every believer through Christ. Because Christ came, our relationship with God changed, and thus the way he is worshiped has also changed.

Christ is the savior. Christ died for our sins. I was raised Roman Catholic, where we were told ad infinitum that God would forgive us our sins, that Jesus had died for our sins, and if we confess, we would be absolved and heaven would await us. And I watched the parishioners dutifully attend mass, go to confessional and in this way, secure their spot in heaven. I mean, what need do we have for personal responsibility? Jesus died for our sins after all.

All it takes to be saved is to find Jesus and accept him as your savior. Damn, that's some good deal. The caveat being that one must also be a baptized, communioned, confirmed and confessed Roman Catholic for that particular bit of logic to work. According to the priests, anyway.

Alas, I'm stubborn, and I'll take my chances outside the Roman Catholic or any Christian church for that matter. I'll stand or fall on my own merits, and take responsibility, in life, not in death, for my own actions and choices.

Besides, I've heard that there is still room in the Summerland for us wayward souls

Unless Oz has some faery connections and can get me into Tir Nan Og

 

[Inkara1]

I've had my doubts about the Catholic religion ever since one girl I talked to said she didn't feel like she could be in God's house anymore... after giving a guy a blowjob.

 

[Oz]

Umm...that sure doesn't sound like the way the Bible portrays it. Sometimes we think that the best experiences here on earth are the best period. If one believes that there is life after this life, why should he conclude that we will experience the same emotions? Our enviroment would be so radically different, can we really hopothesize what it would be like?

If a person cannot experience the same emotions.....then simply what exists after death is not "them". If the emotions of the soul are removed/tampered with after death......then the whole idea of an afterlife becomes preposterous, as we'll be nothing less than mindless zombies.....blissfully content with heaven as we won't have the emotions to question it. Eternity in a paradise (or wotever your idea of heaven is) might seem all hunky dory.....but I'd like to retain enough free will to say "this place is boring" if I find it to be boring.

Hardly, people think that the old testament strictly portrays a God of wrath and vengence, while the new testament portrays a God of love and forgiveness. God's characterics of both justice and love are portrayed many times throughout both the old and the new testament. But the way that we can communicate with God has changed according to the Bible. We no longer need to offer animal sacrifices for our sin. God is accessable to every believer through Christ. Because Christ came, our relationship with God changed, and thus the way he is worshiped has also changed.

No. It's still the same God, only peoples perceptions of Him have changed.

Ritual aside, because that is a whole seperate argument, has the way people communicate with God really changed........has the promise of heaven and his retribution in Hell changed? The answer is Yes, christianity brought forth the existance of hell, you won't find it mentioned in the Torah. Christianity paints a far more black and white religion than the old testament or Jewdaism ever did.

Edited and added by removing or adding books to the Bible. They did not go through the Bible line by line and change things that they did not like. We lose some of the exact meaning in the translation process, but that is enevitable.

Removing or adding books to the bible on whose authority? The bible, both in oral and written medium, as been changed to suit the purposes of organised churches for millenia.

A helluva lot of meaning has been lost in the translation(s) ... go read your bible and look up the italicised words......you have obviously spent some time studying the bible, so I presume you know why they are written so........but how many priests/vicars/public speakers have you heard that totally do not understand why they are there? You can easily tell when they emphasise the italicised words.

 

[Oz]

Besides, I've heard that there is still room in the Summerland for us wayward souls

Unless Oz has some faery connections and can get me into Tir Nan Og

Always a lil' space for a fun-lover as yerself Cam

 

[AlladinSane]

Allegory put aside what it takes to be saved is charity, and I don't mean giving coins to the poor, but really being helpful and benefactor at your heart. To quote his own words:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Does he mentions a specific religion, people or anything else? No he just judge by people's acts. It's clearly enough. Personally I don't believe in eternal damnation or salvation and I base myself in soem of his words to think that way. Allegories where needed at the time. And some things that were said in Christ's or Moses's times were needed to be taught that way because people wouldn't understand other way.

 

[catocom]

I believe totally with what Gato has stated.

I might just add, or clarify that the way I understand it.
Jesus came to fulfill the prophecy, and/which was to change
the blood sacrifice so that it didn't have to be preformed anymore,
(thus making the peoples more civilized IMO)

So I take that God has a need to be worshiped through sacrifice.
Jesus took it all on himself. So if you don't believe in him, where's your sacrifice, that you may go to Heaven?

 

[paul_valaru]

damn, I'm gonna hell?

What bothers me is all these major religions think THEY are right, and the others are wrong.

The Jews are waiting for the messiah.

the Christians think Jesus WAS the messiah.

The Muslims beleive Jesus was a prophet, and so was mohammed.



Now this is the same god, for all 3, maybe he loves us all?



Me, I think if you beleive in heaven, you go there, I think we create our own gods, not the other way around.

 

[Gato_Solo]

damn, I'm gonna hell?

What bothers me is all these major religions think THEY are right, and the others are wrong.

The Jews are waiting for the messiah.

the Christians think Jesus WAS the messiah.

The Muslims beleive Jesus was a prophet, and so was mohammed.



Now this is the same god, for all 3, maybe he loves us all?



Me, I think if you beleive in heaven, you go there, I think we create our own gods, not the other way around.

Looks like you've finally fell upon the secret to eternal happiness.

 

[paul_valaru]

Looks like you've finally fell upon the secret to eternal happiness.

yep


apathy

 

[Gato_Solo]

yep


apathy

Nope...but you get a tissue for a consolation prize.

The secret is to be true to yourself, and don't worry about somebody else.

 

[paul_valaru]

The secret is to be true to yourself, and don't worry about somebody else.

yep, and if all could live like that, the world would be a much better place, but unfortunatly the christian, and muslim religions (and sub-sects) are very evangalitical, trying to convert people to save the "heathens" or "infidels" souls, a good jsut cause, if you are a beleiver, but the policy put to pratice gets bad, from merely annoying

e.i. Jehovah's witnesses on Saturday mornings

to the truely dispicable

e.i. the spanish inquisition

 

[Gato_Solo]

yep, and if all could live like that, the world would be a much better place, but unfortunatly the christian, and muslim religions (and sub-sects) are very evangalitical, trying to convert people to save the "heathens" or "infidels" souls, a good jsut cause, if you are a beleiver, but the policy put to pratice gets bad, from merely annoying

e.i. Jehovah's witnesses on Saturday mornings

to the truely dispicable

e.i. the spanish inquisition

Looks like somebody hasn't walked in some areas of Brooklyn and been asked to convert to Judaism... ALL religions do that. The trick is to be able to ignore them.

Just let them in on the secret, and close the door.

The secret is to be true to yourself, and don't worry about somebody else.

 

[paul_valaru]

Looks like somebody hasn't walked in some areas of Brooklyn and been asked to convert to Judaism

REALLY!!!

no seriously, I have never heard of that, Judaism is usually a non-evingalitical relegion, we make it HARD to join up, and even then you are considered an outsider.

Maybe it's a small sub-sect in brooklyn that does that, but I have never heard of it before, no I have heard of jews trying to convert jew, like jews for jesus (yes they exist) or go from reform to conservative.

But to recruit goes against what we (they, I washed my hands of it years ago) beleive in

 

[Gato_Solo]

REALLY!!!

no seriously, I have never heard of that, Judaism is usually a non-evingalitical relegion, we make it HARD to join up, and even then you are considered an outsider.

Maybe it's a small sub-sect in brooklyn that does that, but I have never heard of it before, no I have heard of jews trying to convert jew, like jews for jesus (yes they exist) or go from reform to conservative.

But to recruit goes against what we (they, I washed my hands of it years ago) beleive in

Not really. There's one village in Israel comprised totally of converted Italians. Perhaps your outside insiders. Truth is that all religions seek to convert others to their own cause, whether by straightforward evangilism, like Christianity, Islam, and Hindu, or by exclusivity-evangilism (Judaism). Either you grow, or you die. I looked into it, though. The Rabbi talked to me for quite some time. That's when I figured out how it's done. By discouraging new members, you eliminate the folks who just "join up" on the spur of the moment.

 

[paul_valaru]

Not really. There's one village in Israel comprised totally of converted Italians. Perhaps your outside insiders. Truth is that all religions seek to convert others to their own cause, whether by straightforward evangilism, like Christianity, Islam, and Hindu, or by exclusivity-evangilism (Judaism). Either you grow, or you die. I looked into it, though. The Rabbi talked to me for quite some time. That's when I figured out how it's done. By discouraging new members, you eliminate the folks who just "join up" on the spur of the moment.

I beleive you, just never heard of it before.