Kyoto

Do you support the Kyoto Accord?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 40.0%
  • No

    Votes: 6 40.0%
  • I don't know/I don't care

    Votes: 3 20.0%

  • Total voters
    15

Jeslek

Banned
(Mind you, this was written with Canada in mind, but the facts apply to the United States as well.)

Prime Minister Chretien is determined to ratify the Kyoto Protocol despite not knowing the costs. This is like writing a blank check with the money coming out of your own account. The Canadian Alliance is the only party actively fighting against the Kyoto Accord. There are a very good reasons why this Protocol should not be ratified:

Kyoto will devastate the economy - Government estimates put the cost of implementing Kyoto at $40 billion to the Canadian economy and the loss of 450,000 jobs (1.5% of the population) nationally.

Kyoto is grossly unfair. - The Protocol makes a distinction between "developed" and "developing" nations. Only developed nations like Canada are requried to reduce emissions. But what happens if we don't reduce the emissions? Canada can buy credits from other countries. However, such credits would cost Canada anywhere between $2 billion and $6 billion annually and would do nothing to reduce global greenhouse emissions. Money for nothing. This is simply an unfair transfer of ealth from your pocket to foreign nations. Canadians will pay the costs while other countries continue to pollute.

Kyoto is bad for the environment - Satisfying Kyoto's emission targets could lead to a recession in Canada, which would reduce the level of funding available for existing environmental programs. Efforts to protect our rivers, lakes, soil, air, and our endangered species would all have to be scaled back as Kyoto would devastate government finances. As well factories will move to other countries which do not have environmental laws, making the global problem even worse.

Kyoto is bad for you - Government estimates indicate that implementing Kyoto will cause gas prices to rise to $1.10 per liter (currently about $0.70), electricity prices to double, and natural gas to rise by 60%. As well, expect substantial increases in your income tax, and if you have a farm be prepared to pay for the increased costs of gas, electricity, and fertilizer.



So, Kyoto is:

- Canada is the only country in the Western hemisphere that is planning to ratify the Kyoto Protocol. (The United States will not while Central and South American countries are exempt.) Because Canada is the only country in the Western Hemisphere planning on ratifying Kyoto, ratification will create huge incentive for companies affected by Kyoto to MOVE SOUTH.

- Cost to the Canadian economy: $40 billion, 450,000 jobs lost.

- Kyoto will not clean the air. It will not clean the water. It will not plant a single tree. There are more effective ways of cleaning the environment in Canada than the Kyoto Protocol.

- Ratification of the Kyoto Protocol could in fact be harmful to the global environment. Although 160 countries negotiated the Protocol, only about 40 are required to cut emissions. China, India, and Mexico are exempt and do not have to cut emissions.

So, given this, can YOU support Kyoto?
 
i seriously wonder why you're posting this...arguing just for the sake of arguing?

and on what are your arguments based?

i'm not going to discuss this even with you...you're not interested in other people's opinion..it's with all your polls, you ask a question, state your opinion, and as long as everyone agrees things are ok.... then someones disagrees and we end up with another long useless discussion.
i'm seeing a clear pattern here...

don't agrue just for the sake of arguing...and don't copy paste your opinions...

and for gods sake, add some sources to make it look like at least a BIT credible...
 
I think the question was what wacko ultra-conservative website did you copy/paste your opinion from this time?
 
yes...gotta love the pre-formed opinions...

why have an own opinion if you can get one from somebody else :)
 
Shadowfax said:
i seriously wonder why you're posting this...arguing just for the sake of arguing?
There was a big debate this weekend in the debate club.

So, ignoring the opinions, is anyone disputing the facts and the numbers?
 
i'll run this one past you and see if makes any sense. uk signed up to kyoto. infact the uk signed up to kyoto ++ [added emissions cuts by 2010]. our economy has been one of the strongest in europe and internationally over the last few years. while everyone else is looking at a recession we are still fairly ok.
so, not crippling us financially at all it seems.
 
kyoto was ratified in march and we implemented company emissions trading systems in april last year and we are commited to 12.5% cut [rather than the 8% in the treaty] over the same period.
 
Prime Minister Chretien is determined to ratify the Kyoto Protocol despite not knowing the costs

Government estimates put the cost of implementing Kyoto at $40 billion to the Canadian economy and the loss of 450,000 jobs (1.5% of the population) nationally.

que? they don't know the costs, but can still give an estimate? he does know, only not certain...most decisions are made on estimates...
 
erm Shadowfax, I don't think they mean $$$ value but rather the total impact on the country as a whole. When the top members of his cabinet were asked if they actually read the Accord, the response was a "NO". That piece of information I got off the news on the radio.

Anyways, instead of countering my opinions, give some advantages of the system?
 
- Ratification of the Kyoto Protocol could in fact be harmful to the global environment. Although 160 countries negotiated the Protocol, only about 40 are required to cut emissions. China, India, and Mexico are exempt and do not have to cut emissions.

so...please explain to me that even if not all countries are required to cut emissions that would be HARMFUL to the global environment...

every cut back on emission will benefit the environment, or at least make the problem less worse...
and additude of "we won't make a difference" will not get anyone any further....
 
advantages of the system - reduction in pollutants, less dependency on fossil fuels. cleaner air, more efficient energy systems, some stuff like that.
 
erm Shadowfax, I don't think they mean $$$ value but rather the total impact on the country as a whole

the total impact on the country as a whole? we're talking about facts and figures here, remember? i think 40 billion makes a rather great impact on the country as a whole..

now, again: do or don't they know the costs? or is it that the government doesn't know, and the Canadian Alliance suddenly knew the estimate?

oh, and a discussion is about changing views on people's opinions...and kinda ironic to talk of "your" opinion, since "your" opinon was a direct copy/paste job...
 
Shadowfax said:
- Ratification of the Kyoto Protocol could in fact be harmful to the global environment. Although 160 countries negotiated the Protocol, only about 40 are required to cut emissions. China, India, and Mexico are exempt and do not have to cut emissions.

so...please explain to me that even if not all countries are required to cut emissions that would be HARMFUL to the global environment...

every cut back on emission will benefit the environment, or at least make the problem less worse...
and additude of "we won't make a difference" will not get anyone any further....
Easy. Companies that pollute will simply move to countries that do not have pollution controls. In fact, some of those countries may have NO controls, making it worse than it already is. Do you think a new company, one that pollutes, is going to put up a factory in Niagra or Buffalo? One is governed by Kyoto, one is not.

ris, those are all nice benefits, but the cost is rather alarming. But what I'm really coming to is, what about the other side of the coin? What about planting trees and cleaning up?
 
Shadowfax said:
oh, and a discussion is about changing views on people's opinions...and kinda ironic to talk of "your" opinion, since "your" opinon was a direct copy/paste job...
It just so happens I share their opinion buddy. And it seems the current US administration does too. Is that now suddenly wrong?
 
Government estimates indicate that implementing Kyoto will cause gas prices to rise to $1.10 per liter (currently about $0.70), electricity prices to double, and natural gas to rise by 60%. As well, expect substantial increases in your income tax, and if you have a farm be prepared to pay for the increased costs of gas, electricity, and fertilizer.

one last thing..'bad' is only relative..we pay already even more than that. plus the other measures taken by the government cost money as well...keeping lakes, soil, rivers and air clean costs money, because of mans own pollution. keeping the environment clean of our own waste costs money...now, where does this money come from? yes, the taxes.
so if canada for example wants to increase their activity on keeping their environment clean, they'll have to invest. if not with the kyoto treaty, then in another way. but both ways will cost them money.
so using that as an arguement NOT to participate is a bit one sided don't you think?
 
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