Kyoto

Do you support the Kyoto Accord?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 40.0%
  • No

    Votes: 6 40.0%
  • I don't know/I don't care

    Votes: 3 20.0%

  • Total voters
    15
the costs don't seem to be alarming our companies into frenzied uk-leaving. i wonder how many canadian companies are fleeing for the nearest african kyoto-free sweatshop so they can import the stuff at a massive price? :D

there is a potential long term cost i can think of - if the uk has less reliance on fossil fuels as a result of kyoto then we will feel the benefits in years to come. infrastructure in place could save us billions as a head-start.
 
Jerrek said:
Shadowfax said:
oh, and a discussion is about changing views on people's opinions...and kinda ironic to talk of "your" opinion, since "your" opinon was a direct copy/paste job...
It just so happens I share their opinion buddy. And it seems the current US administration does too. Is that now suddenly wrong?

no of course that isn't wrong :)
sharing an opinion is so much easier than forming your own...

so if you're posting a poll here, and want to discuss things, it's also nice to add at least a little bit of your own opinion...makes things a lot more credible instead of repeating what others said
 
Please vote in the poll. I'd be interest in seeing how many people think Kyoto is a good idea or not.

i wonder how many canadian companies are fleeing for the nearest african kyoto-free sweatshop so they can import the stuff at a massive price?
They won't be fleeing for Africa. They will go to the United States. There is already a sort of "brain drain" in Canada with people moving south because of less government control. Kyoto will only reinforce that.
 
i suppose it'd be a trade off between the import duties and staying put where they have the basis. do you actually have any evidence of companies threatening to move?
 
Shadowfax said:
Jerrek said:
Shadowfax said:
oh, and a discussion is about changing views on people's opinions...and kinda ironic to talk of "your" opinion, since "your" opinon was a direct copy/paste job...
It just so happens I share their opinion buddy. And it seems the current US administration does too. Is that now suddenly wrong?

no of course that isn't wrong :)
sharing an opinion is so much easier than forming your own...

so if you're posting a poll here, and want to discuss things, it's also nice to add at least a little bit of your own opinion...makes things a lot more credible instead of repeating what others said

He doesn't have an opnion until he gets one from an ultra-conservative website. Jus like a Limbaughista who listens to the show to get their opinions for the day.
 
nor does he care to even respond to the questions stated above...


don't start an discussion if you don't want to discuss, jerrek
 
This treaty is a hardship on countries that are "developed". The US has already cut emissions drastically. We could & should cut more. Just not with a piece of paper that allows undeveloped to pollute the hell out of the atmosphere. Why not have those countries start with clean industry & not have to clean up later. Make countries like India who pollute far worse than we do clean up their act.
 
Well, I didn't bother to read the cut and paste, but I know there were many things about Kyoto that I disagree with. So I voted against it. Its bad I can't remember what it was, but I was against it in my environmental econ class, so I guess I still am. The prof was trying to argue in favor of it, of course being a lefty ;) And of course I took the class in Europe, so it wasn't in right-wing US antikyoto propaganda context I formed this opinion, so I expect I'm still against it :D I can't remember why I'm against it, but it seems like it was something to do with the treatment of LDCs. There are all kinds of loopholes for LDCs that allow them to pollute as much as they want for x number of years or until x y or z. All the while developed countries would 'suffer' now. I can't remember specifics, but regardless I don't support it as it stands.
 
Ok, and I have to agree with Jerrek. Companies will move to where the pollution restictions don't exist. They already have incentives based on lower wages in LDCs now throw in pollution restictions at home, while providing exemptions for LDC and you really make it compelling!!!

Kyoto's not what it pretends to be!
 
RD_151 said:
Well, I didn't bother to read the cut and paste
There was no cut and paste. I typed it up from notes I took in class, at a lecture, and from the Kyoto protocol itself.
 
Shadowfax said:
because very unbiased and reliable sources at greenpeace tell ...
Yes, that is very unbiased. We all know Greenpeace has a reputation for having a very balanced and centered view when it comes to the environment. :rolleyes:
 
Shadowfax said:
one last thing..'bad' is only relative..we pay already even more than that.
So? Go add another 25% to your existing gas price.

so if canada for example wants to increase their activity on keeping their environment clean, they'll have to invest. if not with the kyoto treaty, then in another way. but both ways will cost them money.
I prefer other ways.
 
flavio said:
He doesn't have an opnion until he gets one from an ultra-conservative website. Jus like a Limbaughista who listens to the show to get their opinions for the day.
Better than letting the socialist government beam my opinion right into my head...

Actually, I just so happens I agree with most of the conservative views, except a few things.
 
We actually managed to get a good discussion going on another website, unlike here where all the socialists/commies just went ape and started attacking ME personally. Here are some more food for thought:

http://pub140.ezboard.com/fgraffeswizardcompilationfrm59.showMessage?topicID=416.topic

Kyoto actually makes me laugh. It's entire structure is designed to move industry from developed countries (which generally have strict air control and pollution control laws) to developing countries (which generally have none). It achieves this by forcing reductions in emissions in clean countries - which forces either very expensive emissions reduction measures on industry (because existing laws typically mandate the cheap measures - cutting profit margins - leading to either inflation or closing of the plant) or the closing of large amounts of industry directly to reduce the emissions (the amount of industry closed is magnified, because the closed industries are in tougher pollution control regimes so it takes 3 western plant closings to get the same environmental benefit that closing 1 developing country plant would create).

Now it gets interesting. Demand for the products does not reduce, so the newly closed plants are replaced by plants in countries who are developing -that happen to be exempt from environmental regulation under the treaty. Maximum profits can be achieved by building a cheaper plant that is even more polluting than the original one replace. But because of the construction time, involved the actual pollution levels might have appeared to drop just after the closings and prior to the reopenings, which would have granted a meaningless "victory" to its advocates.

In short if Kyoto is fully implemented, the world will appear cleaner in 5-10 years but be far more polluted in 15. Funny how that works.

Did a little research on Kyoto, which has always interested me. Smarty (That is me, --Jerrek) is right on the money it seems. If you look at the costs of the treaty, and the uncertain benefits, it isn’t really clear why Kyoto should be ratified on pure environmental concerns. Here is what I found:

The Cost. The Clinton Administration studied Kyoto and found that the CO2 emission guidelines imposed by it would decrease US Gross Domestic product by 3-4% and cost the US about $300Billion. To put this in perspective, the current recession, the one in which so many Americans have lost heir jobs, has experienced a GDP growth of about 1%/year.

This means that if Kyoto were implemented, the effect on the American economy would be catastrophic. Companies would lose profitability and some would go bankrupt. Unemployment would rise. Millions of Americans would lose their jobs and be unable to provide for their families. All that these people have worked for, their homes, their retirement, their college savings, and their livelihood would be erased.

For the purpose of this post, substitute “Canadians” for “Americans,” and you Canadians will experience a similar thing.


-The Exemption. The Third World is exempt from these requirements! The obvious retort is that the US currently is responsible for over 25% of the world’s CO2 production. This ignore two things. First, why isn’t the Kyoto scheme then proportional to CO2 emission instead of exempting the Third World.

Secondly, this ignores the potential CO2 emission of these countries as they industrialize. 1,000,000,000 Indians and 1,000,000,000 Chinese will be exempt. And these two countries are in the process of industrializing right now. The amount of pollution they will produce, particularly given the lack of impetus to develop technological reduction means, is staggering. And the framers of Kyoto would have us believe that this is good for the environment?????????

Third, the exemption provide the Third World with an amazing competitive advantage. The ability to not have to incorporate pollution reduction into production costs will give them an amazing edge. The effect will be a huge trade deficit and the loss of jobs.

The benefit?

What is the benefit of reducing emissions? I have seen some estimates that Kyoto may reduce emission by less than 1 degree. What is the practical effect of this? The truth is, no on really knows the benefits. Yet, despite this, people would ratify a treaty that is certain to cause economic devastation.

Global Warming. Despite the fact that GW is taken by certain segments as revealed truth, the science remains very uncertain. Over the past 100 years the temperatures have increased about 1 degree. And there have been no conclusive studies showing why. Future projections of temperature growth are based on computer “Models” with very questionable assumptions and scientific methodology. There are SO many variables.

For example, long before humans were a blip on the evolutionary map, Earth’s temperatures wildly fluctuated. The Earth is 4 Billion years old, but we only have temperature data for about 100 years – less than .0001% of this time. How much CO2 do forest take out of the air?

At the very least, we need more time to address the flawed methodology of the Models and develop peer reviewed studies that can more accurately reflect all of the variables. To embark on a Trillion dollar CO2 reduction scheme, w/o knowing the benefits, if any, is insane. Even if the GW Models are accurate, we don’t have any idea if Kyoto will have an effect on GW. We simply do not have an understanding of GW, all the variables, and what role we humans play in the temp.

GW is a THEORY, but it has become a religion for many in the European Green parties.

Oh and from the poll, it seems more people are opposed to it than actually for it. :D
 
Shadowfax said:
don't start an discussion if you don't want to discuss, jerrek
I'm waiting for input to discuss. You and flavio attacking me because I don't share your socialistic tendencies isn't enough for me to actually bother with typing up something. ris made some contributions and I agree with some of what he said, disagree with others, but for most part I don't enough to discuss the UK.
 
I have to agree with LL here. While the intent of the Kyoto protocol is certainly good, and there are good parts of the proposal, in its entirety is a very poorly structured solution. In the end, it would not help much, if at all, and the cost to developed nations would be staggering.

In short, it woud cost a shitload of money for little to no net effect on the environment. I don't support it at all. I would support more time, more money, and more great minds being devoted to this problem so that an effective and workable solution can be reached.
 
THis is why it's so hard to have a discussion with you Jerrek. You admit it's a cut/paste, but it's ok since you share their opinion.

Then you contradict yourself later and say it's not a cut and paste.

Now we have to go around about this again.

Shadowfax said:
Jerrek said:
Shadowfax said:
oh, and a discussion is about changing views on people's opinions...and kinda ironic to talk of "your" opinion, since "your" opinon was a direct copy/paste job...
It just so happens I share their opinion buddy. And it seems the current US administration does too. Is that now suddenly wrong?

Jerrek said:
There was no cut and paste. I typed it up from notes I took in class, at a lecture, and from the Kyoto protocol itself.
 
Okay, Flavio and Jerrek...Neutral corners. :D

The bottom line is, if you're going to implement a world-wide standard, make it world-wide. No exceptions, substitutions, or exemptions. No matter what, we all live on the same planet. ;)
 
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