Minding more than one's own business

[freako104]

Slavery was not the issue in the War of Northern Aggression.

they refer to it that way here in NC too. I thnk from the Union perspective it was. From the Southern perspective it was Union aggression since the South was more agricultural and such.


I did not consider the flag being against govt oppression but that is an interesting take on it

 

[Gonz]

The War of Northern Aggression is a misnomer. War against illegal secession is much more precise. That & the fact that Lincoln lobbied against slavery as a congressman shows this war had mulitple facets. The war saved the union, as a whole & made us a much stronger nation in the end.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

The War of Northern Aggression is a misnomer. War against illegal secession is much more precise. That & the fact that Lincoln lobbied against slavery as a congressman shows this war had mulitple facets. The war saved the union, as a whole & made us a much stronger nation in the end.

Source


Some excerpts:

Opponents of the Confederate Battle Flag allege it is a symbol of slavery, treason, and sedition. They, therefore, demand it be expunged from the State Flags and prohibited from being officially displayed.

Other writers have documented how the Southern soldiers who fought under the Confederate Battle Flag did not fight to protect slavery -- there were fewer than 350,000 slave owners in a population of more than 5 million whites -- but to defend their families, homes, and States from a rapacious, invading army.

However, for argument's sake, let us agree that any flag associated with slavery, treason, and sedition should be banned from being officially displayed by the federal and State governments of the United States. When can we expect the official banning of "the Stars and Stripes"?

A far more compelling case can be made against "the Stars and Stripes" as a symbol of slavery, treason, and sedition than against the Confederate Battle Flag.

There was no legal right under British law for a colony to secede from the British Empire. The actions of the American Revolutionaries -- from the Boston Tea Party, to publishing pamphlets calling for independence, to convening the Continental Congress, to taking up arms at Lexington and Concord -- were treasonous and seditious. Their flag, "the Stars and Stripes", therefore, was a symbol of treason and sedition.

Under Abraham Lincoln, it was "the Stars and Stripes", not the Confederate Battle Flag, that became the symbol of sedition in 1861. Lincoln overthrew the second republic of the United States established by the U.S. Constitution when he launched his war against the South. As the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in the "Prize Cases, December 1862: "[Congress] cannot declare war against a State or any number of States by virtue of any clause in the Constitution... [The President] has no power to initiate or declare war against a foreign nation or a domestic State…Several of these States have combined to form a new Confederacy, claiming to be acknowledged by the world as a Sovereign State … Their right to do so is now being decided by wager of Battle."

"The Stars and Stripes" was the symbol of a regime that made arbitrary arrests, suspended habeas corpus, curtailed freedom of speech, press, and assembly. The number of political prisoners has been estimated as high as 38,000. The Legislature of Maryland was overthrown by Lincoln's military. The Chicago Times was among hundreds of Northern newspapers suppressed for expressing "incorrect" views. As late as May 18, 1864, Lincoln was ordering his military to "arrest and imprison…the editors, proprietors and publishers of the New York World and the New York Journal of Commerce."

Now to the issue of slavery. "The Stars and Stripes" symbolizes a country that was conceived and established as a slave republic. Boston's Faneuil Hall, "Cradle of American Independence", had been built by money from the slave trade. John Hancock of Massachusetts -- President of the Continental Congress that issued the Declaration of Independence on July 4, 1776 -- was, himself, involved in the slave trade.

When the Declaration of Independence was signed, the institution of slavery was legally sanctioned in all thirteen colonies. There were, in fact, twice as many slaves in New York than in Georgia.

One of the grievances cited in the Declaration of Independence for the thirteen colonies seceding from the British Empire was London's policy of freeing the slaves. Or as the revolutionaries euphemistically phrased it -- "excit[ing] domestic insurrection".

*************

And now a few words from that great "liberator" himself, Abraham Lincoln:

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it - if I could save it by freeing all the slaves,I would do it - and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone,I would also do that."

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." .... Abraham Lincoln. March 4, 1861 (Inaugural address)



************

Tip of the iceberg, folks. Only the tip.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

One more, since someone mentioned Lincoln's pre-Presidential days...

The following words were said by Abe Lincoln in 1847 long before he was president ....


"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the

power, have the right to rise up and shake off the

existing government, and form a new one that suits

them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred

right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate

the world." .... Congressman Abraham Lincoln


Seeing any hypocrisy yet?

 

[Gonz]

"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power,...

No hypocrisy...they lost.

 

[freako104]

The War of Northern Aggression is a misnomer. War against illegal secession is much more precise. That & the fact that Lincoln lobbied against slavery as a congressman shows this war had mulitple facets. The war saved the union, as a whole & made us a much stronger nation in the end.

May I ask what made it illegal? and would there have been a way for it to be legal?

 

[Gonz]

There was no legal or Constitutional precedence for the Confederacy to secede.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

There was no legal or Constitutional precedence for the Confederacy to secede.

Issue 3 - Was Secession Legal & Patriotic??
Absolutely!!!!!!!. Most of those who wrote and ratified the federal Constitution recognized secession as a legitimate, legal, and constitutional measure of protection against the possibility that the general government might in the future consolidate and centralize political power, violate the terms of the Constitution, and usurp the rights and liberties of the people of the sovereign States.

Thomas Jefferson himself believed in secession as a constitutional measure. Secession is a natural right of any people and has recently been exercised peacefully and successfully by many countries—Slovenia, Croatia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Ukraine.

Now then... This is where the real substance of the War of 1861 comes into play. And I can do no better justice, logic and historic relevance, but as to quote the words of Thomas Guinn:

" If the Southern States hold no right of secession, then the secession of the thirteen colonies from Great Britain is invalid, and the revolutionary war to secure independence unlawful. In such case, we all remain as colonies, and are subject to the British Crown. The Secession of the Colonies, and the Secession of the thirteen States, can not be one good and the other evil, they are both one or the other. Similar conditions existed in both cases and both felt their liberties threatened."

--Thomas Guinn

Source

 

[Gonz]

In this isssue, it matters not what Tom thought. They could have written it in the Constitution. They didn't. The US revolution was a war. We won. We also won the civil war. The south lost. Slaves were freed & still there is no amendment for secession.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

But no more justified an action than the War of Northern Aggression. If one cause was wrong, both were. If one was justified, both were. Same as with the other nations listed.

I'll do some more digging if necessary. Those were just the first I ran across. I've found much that is not commonly taught. Enough to make me rethink my lifelong positions anyway. Your mileage can and might vary. Right now, I have other fish to fry.

 

[Thulsa Doom]

I do this, make these posts, and offer the information not out of any selfish desire to start arguments or beat dead horses. I do it because I researched some things and was appalled at what I learned. I figure other people might be curious too. If not, all apologies and again no ill will. Your opinions are your own, as mine are my own. I'm just the type person that would rather form an opinion with ALL the facts in light.

well certainly. Im always up for education. Know however that I may approach this with a dubious eye considering its conotations in the society I have lived in all my life. It was always one of the last ways of openly intimidating blacks. And it was meant to send a message to chill the liberal northerners who preached equality between races. Ask any black from south of the mason dixon and they will tell you that to them it echoed the age old horror of state promoted unequality and that the threat of oppression still lived in those lands, just under the surface, waiting to rise again... kind of a way of being able to publically say we are still out here... watch out...

Now as a man of noble and solid character as you seem to be I would think you would completely respect this point of view and that your heart would pain at the very thought that others would see you with these kinds of dark narrow minded intentions when you fly your confederate flag. and if this is the case then sure, show me your perspective. Im always up for learning from the point of view of different cultures. And I love the south for many reasons (the cradle of my lineage in fact). And for many other reasons i fear it. Its a Jeckle and Hide land to people like me who see grand tradition and some of the most straight up decent folk youll ever meet. The south seems to be the last national bastion of the "raised well" americans where decency is still the heighest virtue. a lot of northerners cant say that. and besides they have some of the best food in the world. But enough of this fluff. lets see your presentation.

 

[Winky]

Wwaaanntttsss Ttoooo tttyyypppee aaaa rreessspoonnsssee tttooo TttttDdddd'sss ppooosttt
mmmuuussttnn'''ttt tttyyypppeee aaaa rreessspppoonnsssseeee llleeeaaarrrnneeeddd lleeesssssooonnn ffrrrooommm aaaa ccceerrrtttaaaiinn Aaammmeeerrriiicccaannn Sssseeeerrvviiiccceeemmmaannn.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

well certainly. Im always up for education. Know however that I may approach this with a dubious eye considering its conotations in the society I have lived in all my life. It was always one of the last ways of openly intimidating blacks. And it was meant to send a message to chill the liberal northerners who preached equality between races. Ask any black from south of the mason dixon and they will tell you that to them it echoed the age old horror of state promoted unequality and that the threat of oppression still lived in those lands, just under the surface, waiting to rise again... kind of a way of being able to publically say we are still out here... watch out...

Now as a man of noble and solid character as you seem to be I would think you would completely respect this point of view and that your heart would pain at the very thought that others would see you with these kinds of dark narrow minded intentions when you fly your confederate flag. and if this is the case then sure, show me your perspective. Im always up for learning from the point of view of different cultures. And I love the south for many reasons (the cradle of my lineage in fact). And for many other reasons i fear it. Its a Jeckle and Hide land to people like me who see grand tradition and some of the most straight up decent folk youll ever meet. The south seems to be the last national bastion of the "raised well" americans where decency is still the heighest virtue. a lot of northerners cant say that. and besides they have some of the best food in the world. But enough of this fluff. lets see your presentation.

As I have said previously on this and several other discussions here, as well as elsewhere, I do not for one second discount, cheapen, or negate some facts of history. Those facts are:

1. Slavery existed in America. Remember however, it existed legallyin every state of the Union at given times in history. Know also that every single slave in America was sold into a life of slavery by their African ancestors. That gets edited out a lot.

Know another thing. Every single slave ship that brought living people to this country to a life of slavery bore an American flag. Not one ship with a Confederate flag ever brought a slave to America. Slaves first saw America when they were herded off a Yankee slave ship in a Yankee port and sold by a Yankee slave trader. The Confederacy had no ships or ports ample in size to establish any slave trade.

Know one more thing. The last state to outlaw slavery was....Delaware. Not quite the heart of Dixie. Delaware kept legal slavery on its law books until 1901.


2. Misguided people have usurped the Confederate flag for evil purposes. They are a minority, and are as despised by 95% of Southern people as they are anywhere else. We ain't happy about it. The KKK is the most quoted of these groups. The KKK, as displayed in a link I provided above, not only denounces the Confederate flag, they adamantly insist that their only flag is the American flag.

3. More and more, proud people of Southern heritage, black and white, are learning the real truth about the War of Northern Aggression. They are learning that what they have been taught is a lie. I personally know several black men and women who proudly fly the Confederate flag. Blacks served in the Confederate armyin great numbers....by choice. Unlike their counterparts who served for the Union army, they did not serve in segregated divisions...they fought side by side with white soldiers. They were treated with far more dignity and respect by the Confederate army than they ever were by the Union army. To provide only one example of this, consider the fact that Union soldiers knowingly destroyed numerous known stations along the Underground Railroad during the War. Sound hospitable, merciful,and charitable to you?

3. As these Southern people learn what really went on, they are, as I am, displaying the flag in protest of a pack of Yankee lies force fed to us by liberal school administrators. Of course I can only speak for myself on this level, but no disrespect to blacks is meant. We know initially it will be seen that way. We only ask to be heard. If one listens/reads the information with an open mind and a questioning heart, it speaks for itself.

4. I am not a member of any organization, and have no agenda to further except true history. I pay zero dues to any organized group, am on no membership roles, and have my name on nothing associated with any sort of movement. I'm a registered Republican, I belong to Burnett's Chapel Baptist Church, and I think my membership in the KISS fan club is still active. That's it. If anyone is looking here for propoganda, sorry to disappoint.



That being said, if you or anyone else remains curious, I will gladly supply any or all links I can find that relate the true story. Then, as I said before, all I ask is that you make your own decisions. My mind was changed by the research I did. Yours may or may not be, that is up to each person. Anyone who knows me knows I am colorblind. What I cannot stand is hypocrisy and lies...and that's what I was taught in high school.

Ball's in your court.

 

[Gonz]

Slavery existed in America. Remember however, it existed legallyin every state of the Union at given times in history.

New Mexico, Arizona, Alaska & Hawaii, Nebraska, Wyoming, Montana, Oregon, Nevada, Idaho...among others might not agree.

2. Misguided people have usurped the Confederate flag for evil purposes. They are a minority, and are as despised by 95% of Southern people as they are anywhere else. We ain't happy about it. The KKK is the most quoted of these groups. The KKK, as displayed in a link I provided above, not only denounces the Confederate flag, they adamantly insist that their only flag is the American flag.

Therein lies the problem. The swastika had peaceful origins. It was then taken up by a madman & it's further use became void. The evil connotations associated with the swastika are permanent.

The Confederate Battle Flag is also associated with trouble. 150 years ago some men decided to succede from the union. The north stopped them. The flag is now associated with rebellion & slavery. Keep fighting it if you must but both wars are over & both flags need to be put aside.

 

[Thulsa Doom]

Blacks served in the Confederate armyin great numbers....by choice. Unlike their counterparts who served for the Union army, they did not serve in segregated divisions...they fought side by side with white soldiers. They were treated with far more dignity and respect by the Confederate army than they ever were by the Union army.

this seems incredible to me. I have no doubt northern whites didnt exactly treat blacks in the union army like family members but I cant even conceive of the situation being any better in the south. what source did you get this information from?

The problem is that even if the confederate flag has some well hidden noble story behind it, its still widely considered the very symbol of continued oppresion. It was flown by the south who opposed the abolition of slavery. so therefore it was immediatly connected with something terrifying to every black. during the civil rights push of the 20th century it found a revival in the south among those who opposed the concept of civil rights and equality for blacks. this furthered its association as a hateful purposely divisive symbol. so my concern for you would be its too far tainted to be of any good to anyone anymore. it reminds me a little of the ametyville horror real estate agent joke. well sure there were some grusome murders here and the house has been known to eat people in the past but if you actually look into its history it really had some great families living here and theres some nice solid oak in the foundations and if you just ignore the bleeding walls youll be quite pleased and... hey... where are you going...

 

[Gato_Solo]

As I have said previously on this and several other discussions here, as well as elsewhere, I do not for one second discount, cheapen, or negate some facts of history. Those facts are:

1. Slavery existed in America. Remember however, it existed legallyin every state of the Union at given times in history. Know also that every single slave in America was sold into a life of slavery by their African ancestors. That gets edited out a lot.

Most black folks with an education know that most, if not all, ot the African slaves came to the US through Liberia.

Know another thing. Every single slave ship that brought living people to this country to a life of slavery bore an American flag. Not one ship with a Confederate flag ever brought a slave to America. Slaves first saw America when they were herded off a Yankee slave ship in a Yankee port and sold by a Yankee slave trader. The Confederacy had no ships or ports ample in size to establish any slave trade.

Most of the ships carrying slaves from Africa to the US were, in fact, French and Spanish. Although the US did have slavers running Africans, the majority came from European-flagged vessels.

Know one more thing. The last state to outlaw slavery was....Delaware. Not quite the heart of Dixie. Delaware kept legal slavery on its law books until 1901.

You're absolutely correct there...I didn't know that.

2. Misguided people have usurped the Confederate flag for evil purposes. They are a minority, and are as despised by 95% of Southern people as they are anywhere else. We ain't happy about it. The KKK is the most quoted of these groups. The KKK, as displayed in a link I provided above, not only denounces the Confederate flag, they adamantly insist that their only flag is the American flag.

Kind of like how a few fanatical terrorists have given Islam a bad name, eh? If the moderates who flew the battle flag in the past would've gotten together, and beat the crap out of the fanatics who misused the flag, this would be a non-issue. Once again, the majority is damned by the minority.

3. More and more, proud people of Southern heritage, black and white, are learning the real truth about the War of Northern Aggression. They are learning that what they have been taught is a lie. I personally know several black men and women who proudly fly the Confederate flag. Blacks served in the Confederate armyin great numbers....by choice. Unlike their counterparts who served for the Union army, they did not serve in segregated divisions...they fought side by side with white soldiers. They were treated with far more dignity and respect by the Confederate army than they ever were by the Union army. To provide only one example of this, consider the fact that Union soldiers knowingly destroyed numerous known stations along the Underground Railroad during the War. Sound hospitable, merciful,and charitable to you?

Blacks served in the Confederate army because they were promised freedom for themselves and their families after the war. I knew about that, too. What better cause to fight?
As for the segregation? Most white Southerners didn't give a shit...still don't, but, as I stated above about the minority giving the majority a bad name...

3. As these Southern people learn what really went on, they are, as I am, displaying the flag in protest of a pack of Yankee lies force fed to us by liberal school administrators. Of course I can only speak for myself on this level, but no disrespect to blacks is meant. We know initially it will be seen that way. We only ask to be heard. If one listens/reads the information with an open mind and a questioning heart, it speaks for itself.

4. I am not a member of any organization, and have no agenda to further except true history. I pay zero dues to any organized group, am on no membership roles, and have my name on nothing associated with any sort of movement. I'm a registered Republican, I belong to Burnett's Chapel Baptist Church, and I think my membership in the KISS fan club is still active. That's it. If anyone is looking here for propoganda, sorry to disappoint.

Anybody who is in the KISS fan club obviously has issues. Please. See a doctor. If not for yourself, at least for your family...

That being said, if you or anyone else remains curious, I will gladly supply any or all links I can find that relate the true story. Then, as I said before, all I ask is that you make your own decisions. My mind was changed by the research I did. Yours may or may not be, that is up to each person. Anyone who knows me knows I am colorblind. What I cannot stand is hypocrisy and lies...and that's what I was taught in high school.

Ball's in your court.

At least you're honest, and forthright, about your beliefs. From what I can tell, you're obviously not a racist, as you so eloquently stated...posting links would've been nice, though.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

GS: I have posted links. Se previous posts. I have more, some on my home puter, some at work, and some lost for awhile when we upgraded the home machine and like an idiot I forgot to save them. I post them in answer to specific questions, as I shall momentarily. As to the flag on the ship...still, none bore a Confederate flag. Either European or American. Why the association then with the Confederacy, when American ships were the ones that brought slaves here? Why isn't that flag the one reviled?

Gonz: Those were not states at the time I mentioned. So I muisspoke. My statement should have read, every state that was a state at the time in question had legalized slavery. Sue me. And if I'm gonna put this flag aside, you better come get it yourself...it ain't going nowhere easily. I refuse to buy into the bullshit any longer. You do as you please. I have a mind, and I intend to use it instead of being a sheep.

TD: Your points are well taken, and well stated. I will never deny that certain people, inluding the fervent civil rights protestors of the 1960s, misused the flag for evil purposes. As I previously stated, those people were wrong for their actions. Their beliefs were thankfully struck down. I contend that a black man has a better chance of living a harmonious life in Dixie today than anywhere in America, and your experience in Virginia seems to indicate that you would likely agree. All I can say is, I personally have never supported any similar ideas. Not one person who knows me, including those of every skin color imaginable, will tell you any different. I can also say that well over 90% of the people I personally know who display this proud flag do so in the spirit I do so...opposition to an unfair federal government, and Southern heritage. If anyone anywhere can name me one single solitary place in this country that is 100% free of prejudice, racial bias, or similar things people like to associate this flag with, I will move there today and replace every Confederate Battle flag I own with that place's flag. Open invititation...let's hear about them, folks.

I am proud to be Southern, and I will remain so until I die. I am sick to death of the Hollyweird stereotypes and slamming "jokes". However, my outrage is scoffed at by and large. OK. I'll keep quiet. I'll just stay right here in my mountains and exact my little revenge when you all come on vacation and we price gouge the hell out of you. Makes for nicer roads anyway. I have contented myself with the things I have learned for a long time. I know where the "lazy mountain man" shit came from...down to the date of publication. I know where the snickers come from...it's OK, though...I have pretty good aim, and I ain't heard no laughing from the front yard in some time now. See, what people fail to realize is, WE laugh at YOU too. Your ways are funny as hell to us. I ain't never seen such squirmin' and sweatin' as when a big city boy gets out here and that little cell phone won't work. Hilarious. One of these days I plan to wire up some speakers outside and start playing Dueling Banjos every time I see one of you out here lost near dark.

Yeah, I'm getting pissed. Not over this subject in particular...over the double standard in general. I have decided that the best thing to do is to try one last time to get others to see that the very basis for their feelings are built upon lies. So far, I'm having marginal success, all things being considered. I never figured this would be the easiest stance one could take. The cards are most assuredly stacked against it. People are comfortable with their myths; they don't want things to be different. Sadly, it is. Again, believe what you will...but know that it makes me chuckle when I read the other debates and someone gets crucified for a statement based on inaccurate information, and yet...

Now...TD, you asked for more information on blacks in the Confederate army. I am most certainly pleased to present that.

Link to Texas 37th Cavalry's website

Link to The Patriotist site on blacl Confederate soldiers

In addition, numersous books have been written about these forgotten soldiers. A simple Google search should suffice, or search Amazon, Barnes & Noble, whatever site you prefer. The information's right there waiting to be found.

Gonna go sit in some cool water and turn it into steam. Later.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Not to disparage you, SnP, but there are three sides to every argument. Your side, their side, and the truth. The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

Do I sound like I'll be discouraged?

The meds are kicking in now...feeling much more myself...now, where's that copy of Black Oak Arkansas' rendition of "Dixie"...ah...here 'tis...

 

[Winky]

BS if one party is speaking the truth there are two sides and one is wrong.
----------------
SANTA CLAUS


I regret to inform you that, effective immediately, I will no longer serve the states of Georgia, Florida, Virginia, North and South Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, and Arkansas on Christmas Eve.

Due to the overwhelming current population of the earth, my contract was renegotiated by North American Fairies and Elves Local 209. As part of the new and better contract I also get longer breaks for milk and cookies so keep that in mind. However, I'm certain that your children will be in good hands with your local replacement, who happens to be my third cousin, Bubba Joe Claus. His side of the family is from the South Pole. He shares my goal of delivering toys to all the good boys and girls; however, there are a few differences between us:

1. There is no danger of the Grinch stealing your presents from Bubba Joe Claus because he has a gun rack on his sleigh and a bumper sticker that reads, "These toys insured by Smith and Wesson".

2. Instead of milk and cookies, Bubba Joe Claus prefers that children leave an RC Cola and pork rinds [or a moon pie] on the fireplace. And Bubba Joe Claus doesn't smoke a pipe. He dips a little snuff though, so please have an empty spit can handy.

3. Bubba Joe Claus' sleigh is pulled by floppy-eared, flyin' coon dogs instead of reindeer. I made the mistake of loaning him a couple of my reindeer one time, and Blitzen's head now overlooks Bubba Joe Claus' fireplace.

4. You won't hear, "On Comet, on Cupid, on Donner and Blitzen" when Bubba Joe Claus arrives. Instead, you'll hear, "On Earnhardt, Andretti, on Elliott and Petty

5. "Ho, Ho, Ho!" has been replaced by "Yee Haw!" You also are likely to hear Bubba Joe Claus' elves respond, "I her'd dat!"

6. As required by Southern highway laws, Bubba Joe Claus' sleigh does have a Yosemite Sam safety triangle on the back with the words, "Back Off".

7. The usual Christmas movie classics such as "Miracle on 34th Street" and "It's a Wonderful Life" will not be shown in your negotiated viewing area. Instead, you'll see "Boss Hogg Saves Christmas" and "Smokey and the Bandit IV" featuring Burt Reynolds as Bubba Joe Claus and dozens of state
patrol cars crashing into each other. And finally,

8. Bubba Joe Claus doesn't wear a belt. If I were you, I'd make sure your wife and kids turn the other way when he bends over to put presents under the tree.

Sincerely,

Santa Claus