Minimum wage

Should we abolish the miminum wage?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 38.9%
  • No

    Votes: 10 55.6%
  • I don't know or I don't care

    Votes: 1 5.6%

  • Total voters
    18

Jeslek

Banned
I think the minimum wage concept should be abolished. Employers should be able to decide what they want to pay their employers without interference with the government.


http://www.self-gov.org/cox02.html

At the urging of President Clinton, Congress is in the process of raising the minimum wage rate for the first time since 1989. The called for increase would move the minimum wage rate from the current $4.25 to $5.15 over two years. Opposition to any increase is on the grounds that any increase will put unskilled workers out of jobs.

Just as a worker will only offer his labor time for a wage he finds beneficial, so an employer will only be willing to pay workers a wage that permits him to earn a profit. The higher the wage, the fewer workers the employer will employ. This is what economists mean when they invoke the law of supply and demand.

Unfortunately, there are hundreds of thousands of low-skilled workers and potential workers who will not find jobs at a higher wage rate (a local newspaper recently ran an article stating that there are 600,000 functionally illiterate adults in metro Atlanta alone!).

However, supporters of an increase do not accept this well-established economic view. Instead, they claim the increase is a way to provide a livable wage and to fight poverty.

But, the question must be asked: If raising the minimum wage from, $4.25 to $5.15 is so good for low-income people, why stop there? Why refrain from an even greater generosity, an even more livable wage, and an even greater fight against poverty? Why not raise the minimum wage to $10 or even $100 an hour, so everyone can be well-off!

This is no idle question. After all, the same reasoning that justifies an increase to $5.15--that Congress can generate prosperity through legislation--certainly also justifies an increase to $10 or more.

The reason politicians and other supporters of an increased minimum wage law don't follow their own argument to its logical conclusion is political, not economic.

Were the minimum wage raised this evening to $10 or more, millions of middle class working Americans would report to work tomorrow only to find that their jobs were no longer available to them. And they would know immediately that the new minimum wage law was responsible. Political heads would roll. If the nation avoided an outright citizens' attack on Washington, then, at the very least, those in office who supported the new minimum would find themselves soundly beaten in the next election.

The majority of politicians clearly understand this. While some politicians may genuinely believe that their efforts will help their constituents, this naive view is rare. The law of supply and demand cannot be repealed. Every increase has reduced employment at the lowest end of the pay scale. But the broad middle class of working and voting Americans has not been directly affected.

Studies suggest that for every 10 percent increase in the minimum wage, a minimum of 100,000 jobs are lost. A jump from the current $4.25 to the intended $5.15 is a 21 percent increase, amounting to over 200,000 newly unemployed. Other estimates would indicate a greater than 400,000 job loss.

But the vast majority of people adversely affected by the increase are either young, illiterate, or among the lowest ranks of the socio-economic ladder. They generally don't vote, don't work on political campaigns, don't contribute campaign money, don't write letters-to-editors, and don't otherwise make themselves heard politically. In short, these people just do not count in the political process. So politicians and special interests can posture as the saviors of these low- income people while actually destroying their prospects for attaining upward mobility.

This is the reality behind the feigned concern and compassionate rhetoric of politicians and other supporters of a minimum wage increase, and it is a very ugly reality, indeed
 
ash r said:
and without minimum wage, they could pay you $1.50/hr for all they care. you can't buy a mcdonalds happy meal with that.
Then you can quit your job and go to an employer that pays better :) Free enterprise is beautiful eh? No one is forcing you to work for them at $1.50 an hour.
 
yeah, but most places probably would only pay $1.50.
"just think of all the money we could save! we could be mega extra super assholes! wouldnt that fucking rock!!?!!?!"
therefore, more people, dissatisfied with pathetic wages, would be umemployed.
(yes, $1.50/hr is better than $0/hr, but try telling people that)
 
free enterprises, free deals on wages amongst the people running them.

can i ask you seriously: what's against minimum wages? they aren't high at all, and it's not like companies are losing profit because of them, because the wages are a minimum. paying less than that would be merely theft.
of course, you can find another employer. but at a certain point there aren't more employers, and you'll have to take that job with 1.5 buck per hour, because otherwise you'll end up with welfare, which you detest even more.

let me ask you a question. what is this tremendous fear you have against government regulations? you seem to dislike and fear everything the government is taking care of on a social level. you'd rather live in a country without NO social help at all? nevermind, i know the answer already.
but that is always easily said if you're standing higher on the social ladder, as people like all of us are.


oh, btw. this would have fit real world forums better i think...
 
ash r said:
yeah, but most places probably would only pay $1.50.
"just think of all the money we could save! we could be mega extra super assholes! wouldnt that fucking rock!!?!!?!"
therefore, more people, dissatisfied with pathetic wages, would be umemployed.
(yes, $1.50/hr is better than $0/hr, but try telling people that)
Then if so many people are unemployed, employers will not have anyone to work for them. Thus, they would raise rates to employ people. The need for labor ("demand") and the work force ("supply") will offset each other and create the right environment.
 
The need for labor ("demand") and the work force ("supply") will offset each other and create the right environment.

yes, in a theoretical perfect world. but we all know that will never happen. if the markt mechanism would work that well, then there wouldn't be so much unemployment, nor economical resession.

but history shows us that we don't live in a perfect world, so there have to be other means to make sure that the markt mechanism works better.
 
Shadowfax said:
can i ask you seriously: what's against minimum wages?
It causes less jobs to become available. Raising the minimum wage causes unemployment to rise. Lowering it will cause unemployment to get lower.

they aren't high at all, and it's not like companies are losing profit because of them, because the wages are a minimum.
So if they are not high at all, abolishing them wouldn't make much of a difference right?

paying less than that would be merely theft.
of course, you can find another employer. but at a certain point there aren't more employers, and you'll have to take that job with 1.5 buck per hour, because otherwise you'll end up with welfare, which you detest even more.
So you say that $1.50 an hour is worse than $0 an hour?

let me ask you a question. what is this tremendous fear you have against government regulations?
Why do you love government so much?

you seem to dislike and fear everything the government is taking care of on a social level.
We all saw what happened in the USSR when government tried to take care of everyone on a grand social level.

you'd rather live in a country without NO social help at all? nevermind, i know the answer already.
:D

oh, btw. this would have fit real world forums better i think...
My mistake. Sorry. :)
 
And as we know in countries that have no Minimum wage or a very low one (mexico ,china) people are paid at a fair rate :rolleyes:
 
Shadowfax said:
yes, in a theoretical perfect world. but we all know that will never happen. if the markt mechanism would work that well, then there wouldn't be so much unemployment, nor economical resession.
What do you call the market today then? We have a supply of goods, and consumers cause demand. Free enterprise. The price is what consumers would pay for the product.

but history shows us that we don't live in a perfect world, so there have to be other means to make sure that the markt mechanism works better.
So why not revert to complete socialism? The USSR provided goods to its citizens at fair prices. Everyone paid the same. Everyone earned the same wages. Very fair, very perfect. (Ignoring the fact that after 70 years it collapsed)
 
If everybody is only making $1.50/hr and can barely afford to survive ,they aren't going to make purchases that drive an economy .Employers would be making less profit and would cut wages even more.
 
Jerrek, trying to discuss things with you can be really frustrating. You keep coming back with the dumbest questions ....Like

So what is it? A. You like shit sandwiches Or B. You eat shit straight up because you don't like bread.
 
Jerrek said:
It causes less jobs to become available. Raising the minimum wage causes unemployment to rise. Lowering it will cause unemployment to get lower.

in a perfect world, like i stated above...but then again, for one minute, consider that it might happen that the markt mechanism won't work that perfectly...?

So if they are not high at all, abolishing them wouldn't make much of a difference right?

yes it would. lowering salaries from let's say a fixed 6 dollars per hour to perhaps 3 because of free wages, would mean that the lower class worker would have to work twice as much for the same amount of money.
paying people must be done for the amount of work they give. lower class people without education who work hard deserve at least the minimum wages, and musn't become a victim of deals between different cooperations. which will happen without regulations.

So you say that $1.50 an hour is worse than $0 an hour?
no, i'm giving an example that your comments on going to another employer won't always work.

Why do you love government so much?
that's just a cheap way of avoiding my question. i asked you a question. now, if you don't want to answer it, then say so. don't avoid the question please.

We all saw what happened in the USSR when government tried to take care of everyone on a grand social level.
but hasn't it occured to you that there might be the slightest chance that somewhere between those two extremes may be the solution? there is more than just plain black and white, jerrek.
 
So what position did you say you would be filling at the North Pole?? ...dictator?
 
Jerrek said:
What do you call the market today then? We have a supply of goods, and consumers cause demand. Free enterprise. The price is what consumers would pay for the product.

oh, is that so? you must live in a complete different world than i do. so now canada is a perfect example of free market? there is perfect balance between supply and demand? no people bitching about the latest prices of whatever good they're buying?

if there is a perfect free market system in canada, i'll seriously consider moving up there.
but somehow i seriously doubt your statement.
 
Squiggy said:
So what is it? A. You like shit sandwiches Or B. You eat shit straight up because you don't like bread.
...at minimum wage, you would have to choose B, as A would no longer be an option.:blank:
 
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