Minimum wage

[RD_151]

Try to get an American to work for $1.50 an hour. Better yet, assuming you are an employer, try to get one to work for $6!!! you'll have enough trouble at that rate and realize almost NOBODY with citizenship and a right to work in this country is gonna do it.

its funny, I have 2 jobs myself, but at my second, which is EXTREMELY LOW PAY ($7/hr) we can't find anybody to stay. This job consists of going to work, siting and doing nothing, and collecting your check. I literally take my little LCD TV and my laptop to work everytime I'm there, and I watch movies, TV, or play games. They pay people $7 an hour for this, and yet NOBODY is willing to stay!!! They average about 3 days and quit. Why is this? Not getting paid enough? Is minimum wage too low? Nah, I think not, the same job paid about $8-9/hr in Michigan!!! This is Kentucky, a decidely POOR STATE, and yet people are not working for $2 more than minimum wage. This is only ONE example. There are plenty of job openings out there at the bottom, but people all want more. Sure, there is horrible unemployment right now, but there are plenty of $6-10 an hour jobs out there people are REFUSING to take, because its not enough. Ok well, this illustrates my point. Even employers paying above your minimum wage can't attract employees, thus the employees willing to work for such a low wage have to work 12 hour shifts and lots of overtime to make up for the fact that people just won't work for such a little amount. Now this is only one example. I could find you many more, but i don't feel like trying every ghetto poor entry level position I can find to prove it. This is my exprience. I know other people with second jobs as well, and they give me the same story, nobody wants to work for pay in this price range.

Ok, in Oakland I could understand, where you are at it makes sense, but here? Price levels make a difference!!! But man, this is Kentucky!!! I don't think you are gonna find too many poorer places than THIS!!! At least not in the US.

If you are in Oakland, or SF, or NYC, I can see your point a little more. You can't live on MOST salaries paid there. I hear you, I understand that, but in the rest of the country out side the biggest and most expensive cities pay is more than sufficent. I'm not sure about the "rural areas" that PuterTutor was refering to though. Maybe there is some concern there as well. So people in NYC, SF, etc etc should leave for a smaller city, and people in the country should move to a more urban area and all will be fine.

Oh, and if you don't have money, borrow it from somebody. I assume you have SOME family members, or some friends. Or if nothing else at least a couple credit cards!!! Besides, there is the internet, can't you apply for a job in say Sacramento if you live in Oakland, the cost of living is quite low in Sacramento, and pay is still quite high.

 

[PT]

If it's so impossible to even find someone to work for minimum or less, then why bother getting rid of it?

 

[RD_151]

Well, my first statement was that its kind of a moot point. Wasn't it?

Well, there are reasons, and they were stated, but in truth it wouldn't have much effect anyway. Maybe more young people would work in this case. Thats about the only affect its likely to have.

 

[RD_151]

btw, thank you for jogging my memory on this. The reason MOST economist are against minimum wage is because it benefits mostly ONE group. Who are the people earning minimum wage? High school students. They found that the minimum wage amounts to a subsidy to the middle class high school students. THAT is why I'm against it. THEY are the least deserving of the subsidy. THE MOST EFFECTIVE way we help "the poor" is the Earned Income Tax Credit, THIS is what SHOULD replace minimum wage if you want to know. I would vote for eliminating the minimum wage law and increasing EITC if that was the issue. Even if to abolish the minimum wage an increase in EITC was required. Thats a fine political bargin. And a more efficient and targeted subsidy. I'm fine with subsidising those who really 'need' it, but need is the operative word.

This fear that things will revert to the early 19th century conditions if minimum wage laws are removed is all a silly notion. Anyone should see through this. Things are different now, and are unlikely to go back to the way they were. You guys are looking at history and using the past to explain the likely future in absense of minimum wage laws. But it doesn't work in this case. LOTS of things were different then!!!

 

[PT]

I certainly see your point on this RD, but I just feel like if it wasn't there, there would be employers trying to exploit their employees. Perhaps not now, as you said, alot of things have changed, but there are still very poor people out there willing to do just about anything to survive. You said it would create new jobs, but if the other stuff of what you said is true, then eliminating the Minimum shouldn't really have any effect at all, right?

 

[Gato_Solo]

It's all class warfare. Rich versus poor. Without minimum wage, you'd only have welfare. In fact...sometimes you make more money on welfare than you can on minimum wage.

 

[flavio]

Oh, and if you don't have money, borrow it from somebody. I assume you have SOME family members, or some friends. Or if nothing else at least a couple credit cards!!!

Poor people making a couple bucks an hour with money for $1000 U-Hauls, money to get started in a new place, rich relatives, and even credit cards! Where is this fairy tale place?

The only reason to want to get rid of minimum wage would be for employers to have the ability to pay people $1.50/hr if they want. If this would never happen then why get rid of it?

The fact is if there was no minimum wage then there would be many examples of employers paying incredibly low wages because they can get away with it.

 

[Shadowfax]

Oh, and if you don't have money, borrow it from somebody. I assume you have SOME family members, or some friends. Or if nothing else at least a couple credit cards!!!

mhhh, the problem with a lot of people who are really poor is because they had poor parents, who couldn't afford having their kids get to schools, to get education and have prospect on a better life, a more wealthy life.
and for the credit card thing, say seriously: would you give your cc to a poor person? he'd most likely not be able to pay you back, plus the interest the banks charge. getting a poor man into debts is even worse than the point where he started off with having nothing.

 

[RD_151]

Well, it would create jobs. The ultimate effect of eliminating minimum wage would be to encourage less profitable more labor intensive businesses to try to enter the market. You would see a lot (maybe not a lot, its difficult to say) more teenagers working, and employment would rise. Further, prices would decline (at least to some degree). I don't know about you, but the last time I went to the mall or a fast food resturant I didn't see too many people over 18 working there. Well, these teenagers may very well work for $4 an hour so they can save up and buy that new (or more likely used) Mustange or Camaro or whatever. In reality, MOST people who work for minimum wage are teenagers. I will try to look at one of my old public econ textbooks when I get home to give you numbers. I'll probably forget though (sorry). In my "Economics of Poverty, Inequality, and Discrimination" textbook from way back in the day there is a lot of data on this. The teenager aspect of this doesn't EVER come up in political discussions, so I never thought anything about it myself (actually I forgot myself until your last post, somehow that reminded me). Its good to look at it from this side, because it gives you an entirely different perspective. Assuming you don't worry too much about a return to 19th century working conditions.

I think there would be a long-run effect, and it could contribute up to maybe a couple percent to GDP but it wouldn't be that significant. Again, I'm only guessing. i know when I was a teenager I wanted to find a job, and I couldn't find one most of the time, or when i did, there weren't many hours available. I suppose opening the door for more jobs (even at lower pay) would increase the amount of money teenagers have to spend, and the amount of purchases they make, thus further stimulating demand for even more consumption, more jobs etc etc, that whole money multiplier effect. I don't know what the end result would be, but i suspect there would be a modest increase in GDP in the long-run with little or no impact on the "working poor." The "working poor" make up such a small percentage of those making the minimum wage that its really almost insigificant. Now, there are plenty of "working poor" making more than minimum wage. I never claimed you could have a good life and raise a family on minimum wage. Thats why people won't work for it (ok, teens will) or even a little more. I don't really believe in the "working wage" that Nader spoke about, but I do like Clinton's Earned Income Tax Credit. Its the best approach to this matter that we have taken to date. And its far more concentrated on those who really do need it.

Basically minimum wage is a teen issue, even if people don't realize it. If you think about it at little though, or better yet, look at the data, you will see this is all politics. EITC helps the poor, minimum wage helps subsidize some teens new car purchase.

 

[RD_151]

Actually, I almost moved with no job and no prospect of a job a while back. I intended to use credit cards to pay the bills until I found something. I was in a small town in Michigan and nothing was happening. Been there done that. Luckily I found a job before it came to that. I was about 1 month from loading my car for a road trip out to Cali in hopes of finding a job in SF or LA, or better yet San Diego. Fortunately, or unfortunately depending on how you look at it, I found something at the last minute.

I think at that point I could be considered poor, $0/hr is poor isn't it. Add to it years and years of student loans and welll, THAT is poor, worse deeply in debt, and I was ready to do it!!!

I might have to do it later this year even, and I'm not that worried about it. I'll find something, the temp services are pretty quick to find you work in the worst case senerio. I have 2 jobs even now, so obviously I'm not gonna feel too much pitty for somebody complaining when they only have one

 

[freako104]

hey i know this is off topic but is anyone else thinking of They Might Be Giants song Minimum Wage?


Minimum Wage Hyah!!!!!!!

 

[flavio]

Actually, I almost moved with no job and no prospect of a job a while back. I intended to use credit cards to pay the bills until I found something.

You are single, with credit cards, most likely relatives that would lend you money from your previous post, and I'm going to assume if you made $0/hr that you were living with parents or something.

This is not exactly the plight of the poor.

You would see a lot (maybe not a lot, its difficult to say) more teenagers working,

Lowering pay would encourage more teenagers to work? Teenagers don't HAVE to work generally. Lowering pay would encourage them to stay home or sell drugs or something.

 

[Shadowfax]

Lowering pay would encourage them to stay home or sell drugs or something.

you had good arguements, flavio, but the drugs comment is really overreacted...as if most kids who don't work 'cause the salaries are too low for them go sell drugs...that's just plain
i get your poiny, but use a more realistic example....

 

[RD_151]

Lowering pay would encourage more teenagers to work? Teenagers don't HAVE to work generally. Lowering pay would encourage them to stay home or sell drugs or something.

You have to be joking right? Aparently you didn't read anything I said. Teenagers like to work, so they can buy cars, and go out with their friends and do things. If things are different where you live, I assume you are the one with the high income situation calling those with lower incomes in better positions than yourself. I have to presume this to be the case if teenagers in where you're from dont' work, and mom and dad pay for EVERYTHING. Strange how that works huh.

And actually NO, I'm not single, and you can ask my wife how thrilled she is about me working two jobs if you wish, I know she's really happy about it But at the same time I'm not in favor of minimum wage either!!! As for not reading my posts, I would say from your last one, saying that I'm 'single' it would be quite clear you didn't read them. Since I mentioned discussing this issue with my wife

But anyway.

 

[RD_151]

we aren't gonna agree on this issue.

minimum wages are bad, for the reasons I stated. if you want to think otherwise. Ok. Its your choice.

I don't see the 'cycle of poverty' so inescapeable as you guys seem to. Everyone needs and excuse. This is as good as any I guess.

I guess I'm turning into a 'right-winger' again Not really, but the arguments presented aren't nearly as strong as some of you guys seem to think. I will rather appear to be a right-winger I guess

 

[Gato_Solo]

Sorry, RD, but I have to agree with most of flavio's points. In an ideal society, we'd be paid what we're worth, and the people with the most money would be teachers. We all know that isn't true. All things mentioned have some value, however, but we all forgot the most important thing that deals with someones worth. The greed factor. All people, to some degree or another, are greedy and self-centered. If you don't make allowances for that, any financial system is doomed to create a perpetual underclass of servitude. Even here, in the US, there is such a class in existence.

 

[flavio]

you had good arguements, flavio, but the drugs comment is really overreacted

Ok, I just threw in selling drugs on a whim. Although there are teenagers who see this as a profitable way to make some cash.

You have to be joking right? Aparently you didn't read anything I said. Teenagers like to work, so they can buy cars, and go out with their friends and do things.

Yes they do and a decent wage makes the idea all the more appealing. A low wage -> less motivation.

And actually NO, I'm not single, and you can ask my wife how thrilled she is about me working two jobs if you wish

I apologize for the assumption. It was based on the fact that you said you recently made $0 and the conclusion that followed that someone must be paying for your food and a place to sleep.

...and yes I'm reading your posts. I'm quoting the parts I have issue with.

 

[RD_151]

My assumption was entry into the market of new firms by eliminating the minimum wage law. But you might be right, the more I think about it, there are already more jobs than people willing to work at them. Thats why tens of thousands of people from foreign countries come to work in the US in the summer, mostly university students. You are probably right!!!

I don't disagree that firms in general are bastards, and will try to screw you as much as they can. I'm not Jerrek, I don't think the rich need a tax cut. I also don't think corporations care the least bit about people. I know, its ONLY about profits, but I don't see the need for minimum wage. You must admit, in Oakland there aren't too many minimum wage jobs. Ok, I haven't been there, but I was looking into moving to the Bay Area, and I couldn't believe how high wages are. I couldn't believe even more how much the cost of living is. Its a bit extreme. I don't know how people can live in NYC, SF, LA, etc etc. Myself I'm torn between moving to D.C. later this year, with almost the same pay, or looking for something else. I think i will look for something else. now I'm nowhere near minimum wage. Poverty is the least of my concerns, I admit that, but cost are so high in larger cities that its just not worth living there, at least for me. i don't see how I could live in D.C. on what I make, so I really don't see how somebody could live on so much less.

I'm not so cold hearted as Jerrek seems to be, but at the same time I don't see minimum wage helping. I also don't see companies trying to pay less than they do already. The fact that they need to import labor from abroad every year to cover the short fall in the summer due to American's unwillingness to work for such low wages.

I actually didn't try to argue that people are paid what they are worth. Actually, if thats the case, minimum wage would be waaay too much for me And Gato, you are right, teachers would be paid more. Private sector and public sector work very differently though. In the private sector I don't think anyone is aruging that people are paid what they are worth. i doubt that ever happens. People SHOULD however be paid basically the marginal product of their labor (ok, maybe only in an economist ideal world, but it should approximate that). The public sector is another matter. If public employees were paid their marginal product they guy making minimum wage would be making more


Btw, no need to apologize. I had smiley faces didn't I? If not, sorry, here is the one that was missing

If you look at the numbers, it becomes clear that EITC is a million times better than minimum wage laws. i only wish I had access to the number right now. Hopefully I will find them in my textbook at home.

 

[RD_151]

Ok, it seems to be worse than I though. I know that trends indicate that poor are getting poorer and weathly are getting wealthier, but this seems to contradict what I said earlier.

http://www.epf.org/press/pr991108.htm

I wonder how old that textbook was now? Or worse, how bad my memory is getting That can't be good!!!

 

[RD_151]

ok, I can't remember how to post images, just a sec.