Need help with Quantum Physics

chcr

Too cute for words
Independent thinkers/scientists are looked down upon to the point that many feel frustrated and discouraged.
See, now I don't think that has changed appreciably throughout recorded history. I mean, we don't burn them as heretics anymore, but it has always been discouraged. I say think what you will. I won't discourage anyone, although I will hold a private opinion, if no one minds (or even if they do). :D
 

outside looking in

<b>Registered Member</b>
HeXp£Øi± said:
As far as being the center of the universe in an expanding universe, the idea is positively ridiculous.Why? Because if the expanding universe theory were accurate there would be a massive void at what was once the center. In otherwords everything would be moving away from that point in space. I'm not saying absolutely that the expanding universe theory is inaccurate, only that if it is accurate we're definetely not at the center.

Erm, you're thinking about an expansion of matter in a predefined three dimensional space. Instead, think of an expanding three dimensional volume within a four dimensional space.

As an analogy... you inflate a balloon. All points move away from one another. Where is the "center" of the surface of that balloon, and where is the void that everything has moved away from?

You can't forget that it isn't just matter expanding into space, but space itself that is doing the expanding... carrying matter along for the ride. The average local velocity of matter in the universe might well be near zero.

You are right about one thing though... the culture of scientists does make it difficult for some people with truly original or unordothox thinking to be accepted (depending on the personality and environment of the individual(s) in each case). That's the nature of almost anything humans are involved with. But I still believe that the science culture on its worst day isn't as bad re: oppressing differing opinions as the church was during the dark/middle ages. Hell, I'm not so sure that the comparison wouldn't still be valid today even on religion's best day.
 

HeXp£Øi±

Well-Known Member
3dimensional

Yes all points move away from one another yet they will still move at a greater rate from the point of origin. There would be a void. It's a simple fact. Think about this oli, If the redshift were accurate and we actually were seeing the end of the universe or were even half of it we could easily calculate redshifts in each direction and mathmatically isolate where the redshift occured. Instead what we see are objects on all sides moving equally away(or what we think we see). In fact if the big bang had occured we would know it because we would detect a phenomonon in space where suddenly the redshifts would increase exponetiallly. This phenominon would be so obvious it would be impossible to miss. In fact i even have my own theory to explain the redshift and this might be something you want to ponder as well. I believe that it's possible that light in order to maintain its velocity, expends energy. This could possible completely explain the wavelength expansion. We assume that light uses no energy whatsoever to travel these great distances because space is supposedly an ether but space isn't really a pure ether. even if a photon only encounters a partical once every 1/1000000th it's size every light year or million light years what happens to it? I only encourage you to think about these things oli as i can tell from your knowledge of physics that you know these concepts aren't always grasped immidiately.
 

outside looking in

<b>Registered Member</b>
HeXp£Øi± said:
Yes all points move away from one another yet they will still move at a greater rate from the point of origin. There would be a void. It's a simple fact.
I'm sorry, but that's just not correct. If you trace every point in the current universe back to the beginning, you find that every single point is the center. Or, if you want to state it a bit more traditionally, there is no origin point. The universe itself is the origin point. Once again, you have to remember that space itself is expanding (uniformly I might add), not just matter moving through space. The local velocities of distant galaxies is likely quite small. Due to the expansion of space, the relative velocities are high. I don't have the time to explain this in greater detail, but I sincerely suggest you browse a couple of physics websites that more thoroughly explain this, as the principle I'm describing is quite sound and entirely verified by observation.

In fact if the big bang had occured we would know it because we would detect a phenomonon in space where suddenly the redshifts would increase exponetiallly. This phenominon would be so obvious it would be impossible to miss.
If the big bang had occured we would observe precisely what we have observed.
 

HeXp£Øi±

Well-Known Member
I understand what you believe Oli and what the majority of the scientific community believes and it pains me to know that the scientific community can't even grasp the consequences of it's own theories.The idea that the universe is expanding yet not from a center point is absolutely ridiculous. Have you ever seen a supernova? Simple physics tells us how this would take place yet the facts are ignored because it doesn't fit the theory. However it's by no means the only silly concept that science today has accepted. The belief that light cannot be slowed down is a fact yet we also know for a fact that light is bent by stars. Which is it, can electromagnetic waves be affected or not? These are just a couple of reasons why i say we live in the dark ages. I'm only sorry you don't wish to stop and ponder these issues more as you're obviously fairly bright.
 

outside looking in

<b>Registered Member</b>
HeXp£Øi± said:
I understand what you believe Oli and what the majority of the scientific community believes and it pains me to know that the scientific community can't even grasp the consequences of it's own theories.
Is it more likely that tens of thousands of the brightest minds on the planet have simultaneously misunderstood the consequences of their theory, or that you have misunderstood them? I'm well aware that sometimes breakthroughs come from unlikely places, but really... you should look at this with a bit of perspective.

The idea that the universe is expanding yet not from a center point is absolutely ridiculous. Have you ever seen a supernova?
Honestly, no, I've never seen one. Have you? I have seen the remenants though, and I've seen computer models of how they explode. That's beside the point though... which is that supernovae are not the same at all as a big bang. In a supernova you have matter expanding from a single point in a pre-existing space with very high local matter velocities. The big bang produced not an explosion of matter, but an explosion of space, with relatively small local matter velocities. Space didn't explode from a single point - it exploded quite literally from everywhere. The two (big bang, supernovae) are entirely different in principle.

The belief that light cannot be slowed down is a fact yet we also know for a fact that light is bent by stars. Which is it, can electromagnetic waves be affected or not?
They can be affected. Gravity may cause them to accelerate (not in velocity, but in vector) or to lose or gain energy (traveling away from or towards a gravitational source, respectively). This loss of or gaining of energy is not accompanied by a loss of or gain of velocity; at least, no experiment ever conceived of and carried out has shown such an effect. And, other than the rather extreme case presented by Joao Magueijo in recent years, there is nothing to suggest that such a thing has ever happened. This is all in a vacuum of course... light traveling thorugh various media is a different story.

Scientists accept that such things are possible, but without at least a hint or suggestion that they might be real they are quite justified in dismissing them.
 

HeXp£Øi±

Well-Known Member
Is it more likely that tens of thousands of the brightest minds on the planet have simultaneously misunderstood the consequences of their theory, or that you have misunderstood them?

Very true yet i'm not alone. There are many other brilliant minds at leading U's around the globe who have these same concepts and yet are not heard. Besides we all know from Galileo's experience that even a large majority of scientists can refuse the obvious for their own reasons.

The big bang produced not an explosion of matter, but an explosion of space
I'm sorry but that's another absurd statement that has no place in physics today. Space just is ragardless of the presence of matter. In the case of a big bang Space did not explode, matter did. Space is not something, it is nothing.

The two (big bang, supernovae) are entirely different in principle.
A principle according the the majority that basically
completely ignores the laws of motion. Yes, i understand completely. Sorry i don't agree.

Some years ago i had written a 20 page paper on the subject. Maybe some time i'll get motivated enough to dig it enough and do something with it.
 

outside looking in

<b>Registered Member</b>
HeXp£Øi± said:
I'm sorry but that's another absurd statement that has no place in physics today. Space just is ragardless of the presence of matter.
Erm, at this point I'm just inclined to say "whatever" and agree to disagree, as apparently even the most basic concepts of reality are up for discussion. But I'll take one more stab at it.

Look, if empty space existed before the big bang and it was just an explosion of matter into that empty space, then the velocities of various galaxies would be fairly uniform away from a common point in space - as is the case with every other explosion in nature. That's simply not what we observe; what we see is a relative velocity proportional to the distance from any other point in space. No matter where you are, and no matter where you look, things are moving away from you with the same relative velocity/distance distribution. That's simply the way it is, as has been confirmed thousands upon thousands of times by simply looking up at the stars.

Now, it must be the case that if things are moving further apart with time, then they were closer together in the past. The inescapable conclusion is that there was some form of dense early universe that began expanding for whatever reason.

So, observation rules out the possibility of an existing volume of space with an explosion of matter. You have interpreted that data to mean that there was no explosion at all, matter or otherwise; no big bang. However, observation also directly points to just such an explosion. The only remaining possibility is that your theory of the evolution of space-time is simply flawed.

The volume of space is not constant, and is increasing with time. It was small in the past, and expanded beginning with the big bang. There's simply no other logically consistent way to interpret the observations. Sorry, that's just the way it is. It isn't being closed minded, it's simply rejecting your idea because all the evidence clearly shows that it is false. I've considered it... it doesn't make sense.

This isn't somehow tied to creationism is it?
 

HeXp£Øi±

Well-Known Member
Space is nothing. It was not 'created' with the big bang. Space is nothing or the lack of something and futhermore there is an infinite amount of it. If you cannot grasp this most basic concept then obviously you won't agree with any of it's following points.

Alright oli you've proven that you can sling insults like there's no tomorrow. I don't believe you're close minded, only that you lack vision.
Pretty sad really. Remember me 15 years from now when scientists discover what the redshift really is. By the way, if it had anything to do with beliefs of creationism don't you think i'd be arguing for the big bang? Maybe you should take a history course as well. But thanks for displaying what you're capable of when cornered.
 

outside looking in

<b>Registered Member</b>
HeXp£Øi± said:
Space is nothing.
Not true.

It was not 'created' with the big bang.
It was.

Space is nothing or the lack of something and futhermore there is an infinite amount of it.
Space is not empty. It contains energy, a plethora of virtual particles, and recent observations suggest that it exerts a negative gravitational force. According to string or M-theory, it isn't empty at all but is simply composed of a configuration of string loop or brane that doesn't possess mass or positive energy. Space is anything but "empty."

If you cannot grasp this most basic concept then obviously you won't agree with any of it's following points.
You're right. It is a basic concept.

Alright oli you've proven that you can sling insults like there's no tomorrow.
I didn't intend to. I just don't know any other way to explain it, and I don't know of a more polite way of saying "you're wrong."

I don't believe you're close minded, only that you lack vision.
Pretty sad really.
I'd love for you to be right. I love exciting changes in cosmology and physics. This just isn't going to be one of them.

By the way, if it had anything to do with beliefs of creationism don't you think i'd be arguing for the big bang?
I don't know, since I really don't recall your beliefs on creationism. I've found that most creationists don't agree with the big bang, which is why I asked.

But thanks for displaying what you're capable of when cornered.
What I'm capable of? You mean sticking to a logical thought process, taking the time to try and explain something, and keeping the discussion grounded in the tangible and rational? I'll take that as a compliment. So thanks, I think.
 

HeXp£Øi±

Well-Known Member
lol. Space is nothing. Saying nothing can't exist is a bit of a paradox wouldn't you agree? Alright let's try this oli, for arguements sake we'll imagine that the universe is 20billion years old. Let's pretend we're another 20billion light years outside the known universe observing it yet we're independent of all matter. Now let's imagine that all matter begins to reverse itself until it is back in it's infinitely small space or until there is nothing, whichever you prefer. Now, are we not still surrounded by an infinite amount of space(nothing)? Space will still exist.
 

Camelyn

New Member
HeXp£Øi± said:
lol. Space is nothing. Saying nothing can't exist is a bit of a paradox wouldn't you agree? Alright let's try this oli, for arguements sake we'll imagine that the universe is 20billion years old. Let's pretend we're another 20billion light years outside the known universe observing it yet we're independent of all matter. Now let's imagine that all matter begins to reverse itself until it is back in it's infinitely small space or until there is nothing, whichever you prefer. Now, are we not still surrounded by an infinite amount of space(nothing)? Space will still exist.

Space isn't nothing. Space is filled with all kinds of neato stuff, like energy for one thing. Space is neither absolue zoro, nor is it empty. There are particles popping in and out of existance all the time....

Camelyn
Wondering if she shoulda just stayed put on the lurky couch.. :)
 

chcr

Too cute for words
Let's pretend we're another 20billion light years outside the known universe observing it yet
How would that be possible, Hex?
Don't get me wrong, I think you're correct that belief in scientific principles is quite similar to religious belief. The main difference is that believers in scientific principles are slightly more willing to accept other viewpoints. This is just my personal experience. I'm with OSLI on one thing though, I think that nothing (at least where physics is concerned) is by definition the lack of existence. Space clearly exists, you can quantify it, etc., so therefore it cannot by definition be nothing.
 

HeXp£Øi±

Well-Known Member
chcr said:
Don't get me wrong, I think you're correct that belief in scientific principles is quite similar to religious belief. The main difference is that believers in scientific principles are slightly more willing to accept other viewpoints.
If understand you correctly ch, i must say with all do respect that i haven't made any statements or comments whatsoever concerning religion and science. That was thrust upon me. My personal beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with my thinking process when it comes to science. I was studying physics and astronomy long before i ever became a christian. Also and again, if i understand you correctly i would say you're being extremely sensative to me when you say that "believers in scientific principles are slightly more willing to accept other viewpoints". Even i can admit that's a drastic understatement. Yet i hope i'm not judged by any measure but my own comments. Just to make it clear it makes absolutely no difference to me whatsoever whether or not the bb actually occured as it would neither prove or disprove any personal belief i might hold. If i can't be believed in this respect there is no point whatsoever in my debating the issue.

Moving on.
Space clearly exists, you can quantify it, etc., so therefore it cannot by definition be nothing.

I agree that space does exist. When i stated that "Space is nothing" i was mearly pointing my belief that it was not something that was brought into existance by the big bang. Rather even if the big bang had occured space would have existed prior to its coming into existance.

Again i hope i interpreted you post accurately ch.
 

outside looking in

<b>Registered Member</b>
Using the term nothing gets a bit confusing because it has a slightly differnt context in different situations and its meaning can get a bit ambiguous. For instance "nothing can exist." What am I saying there? To keep things clear, I'll use "nothingness" to describe the entity (or lack of) that is thought of in a similar way as empty space. I'll use "nothing" to describe a collection of objects/attributes/etc., such as in "nothing is wrong with me."

HeXp£Øi± said:
lol. Space is nothing.
Nothingness is nothing. Space is something.

Saying nothing can't exist is a bit of a paradox wouldn't you agree?
Yes, by definition it is a paradox. There can be a state of "nothingness" but by definition nothing exists there. To keep it simple, I'll just say that nothingness can exist, and that state is different than "empty space," which is something. Nothingness is what was before space was created during the big bang, and is what lies outside spacetime (as if outside has any real meaning here, but there isn't any other appropriate word to use).

Alright let's try this oli, for arguements sake we'll imagine that the universe is 20billion years old. Let's pretend we're another 20billion light years outside the known universe observing it yet we're independent of all matter.
We need to clarify this from the beginning. The size of the universe isn't limited to the size light has traveled since it began. Inflation for one (and Magueijo's alternative) provide one reason why. We also aren't sure if there are spaces which have had no information exchange (or ever will, for that matter). But I'll continue with the example to see where it leads.

Now let's imagine that all matter begins to reverse itself until it is back in it's infinitely small space or until there is nothing, whichever you prefer.
What is going to cause matter to reverse itself? Gravitation? If that's the case, then you must remember that gravitation also affects "empty" space. If matter "reversed" itself, then so would the expansion of space.

Now, are we not still surrounded by an infinite amount of space(nothing)? Space will still exist.
No. If gravitation caused a collapse of space and matter, then we would be carried along with space into the big crunch.

What you are describing is geometrically known as a hypersphere. It is the four dimensional equivalent to a sphere. It represents a volume that is finite, but unbounded, meaning you can travel forever and a day in one direction and never reach the "edge" or "end" of space, and yet there is still only a finite volume contained in space. How is that possible? Think of the Earth's surface for an analogy (this gets back to a curved object in a space of one greater dimension, in this case a two dimensional curved surface in a three dimensional space). The area of the surface of the Earth is finite, yet unbounded. You can travel due west for as long as you please and never reach the edge of the Earth. However, if the Earth began collapsing, and you were confined to its surface, there is nowhere you could run, nowhere you could hide, to avoid being carried along with the surface into the resulting crunch.

How does this translate to the geometry of space-time? Well, if the universe does eventually collapse (as in your example) then we already know that it has the topology of a hypersphere. This is commonly referred to as a closed universe. If our universe is closed, then you could shine a laser in one direction and one day it would return to you from the exact opposite direction, having never been obstructed. All geodesics form closed loops. You could not sit in your spaceship "outside" space and watch matter collapse. During the collapse, you would find that the volume of space in which you could explore continually became smaller. It would take less and less time for the laser light to return to the source having made a complete loop. You would be carried along with space, and everything in it, into the big crunch.

Evidence today suggests that the universe is open and will not collapse. In that case space may be finite or infinite, but would still be unbounded in either case. Though this topology is a bit more difficult to describe, it doesn't remove the fact that space is "something" and was created during the big bang.

Before the big bang there was no space in which your space craft could have existed. There was only nothingness.
 

Raven

Annoying SOB
can I be the layman here and say space is just that? Space a big wide open tract of it. Its not empty t hough its full of tiny particles and stuff. am I right?
 
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