Not another boat thread! ARGHHHHH!

Altron

Altron

Well-Known Member
Well, for today's thread about the boat, a quick update from before.

I still have the same tires, brakes, and shocks/springs I did in April. I may or may not be keeping the boat around, and I don't want to dump money into it. The brake performance is fine, I only ever use the first half or so of brake pedal motion I have available, and there isn't any pad grinding sound.

I have been putting off taking pictures until my parents decide to get a camera. I hope for some nice ones, though.

There seems to be some sort of exhaust leak that I need to troubleshoot, quite possibly the joint between the right exhaust manifold (while sitting in driver's seat) and the exhaust pipe. It's a rougher noise, but it's only around when the engine is above idling, and it does sound like the gurgling sound that bigger V8s with loud mufflers make. I did some preliminary testing and there does seem to be hot air in the area below the floor in front of the passenger seat, as tested by sticking a bare foot under the car and feeling for airflow and heat. I did recently purchase a pair of ramps, so I want to get the car up and take a look.

I'm bugging my dad to take me out in the Maxima whenever possible. I've pretty much got the hang of it, with the exception of hill starts and bumper-to-bumper traffic (I tend to make the front wheels spin a tiny bit while starting, and I can't inch it foreward well). I need to work on smooth starts, but that's something I'll only get from a lot of practice.

However, also on the subject of brakes, the Maxima brakes aren't that great. The rotors seem to have some rust on the surface, and there is a metallic grinding sound. I'm wondering, however, the best brakes I can get for it. Everyone has said 'making it stop is better than making it go' and I wouldn't mind spending extra to get premium brakes. I did some research at Maxima forums but they're a bunch of punk kids and all their brake reccomendations involved non-Nissan parts and 18" chrome wheels. Some enlightenment would be appreciated.

Now that the last thread's minutes are out of the way, time for the point of this new thread.

What is the towing capacity of the boat?

I have my 19' Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser boat and I want to use it to tow a 19' Renken Cabin Cruiser boat.

Now, I know that things will need to be added in order to accomplish this., most notably a proper trailer hitch. The current one is attached to a 1"x2" metal bar that is bolted to the frame somewhere. I will obviously need a serious trailer hitch.

Is it feasible to tow a boat like that? I don't know the weight of the boat or the trailer, but I assume it is a lot. The boat is in the area of 20 feet, give or take 2. The trailer is designed for a slightly larger boat and has two axles.

The rated torque is 255 ft-lbs at 1800rpm. The transmission is a THM200-4R. It's the transmission from the Grand National, but the Grand National is a much lighter car.

Research at an Olds site yielded this graph:
|--------Maximum-------|
Engine Gearbox Gross Torque Overall
Transmission Weight Torque Torque Veh. Wt. Conv. Dia. Length
Model (lbs.) (lb/ft) (lb/ft) (lbs) (inches) (inches)
Rear Wheel Drive:
TH-180C (3L30) 130/140 258 440 7716 9.6/10.24 26.29/28.11
TH-200-4R 157 330 550 6000 11.73 28.26
TH-300 (Jetaway)
TH-350
TH-400 (3L80) 190 440 885 12000 12.20 29.30/34.48
TH-700-R4 (4L60) 167/184 350 650 8600 9.6/11.73 29.77/30.64
4L30-E 168/177 258 440 7716 9.6/10.24 28.54/31.57
4L60-E 160/176 350 612 8600 9.6/11.73 29.77/30.64
4L80-E 260 440 885 15000 12.20 31.93/33.02

The TH-200-4R weighs 157 lbs, handles 330 ft-lbs of engine torque and 550 ft-lbs of gearbox torque, for up to a gross vehicle weight of 6,000 lbs, has a torque converter diameter of 11.73 inches, and is 28.26 inches long.

So, if I add the weight of the car and the weight of the boat and trailer, I can't pass 6,000 lbs? That would only give me 1,750 lbs to play with. I don't think the boat is that light.

The site also says that the TH-200 is easily replaced by a TH-400, and that baby is rated for up to 12,000 lbs. About how difficult/expensive is getting one of those in?

Also, does the suspension need to be replaced with stronger springs?

OTOH, is the Maxima capable of towing? It's much lighter and has almost as much torque, just don't know if the transmission and frame are up to par.

I'm in a tough spot. I want to use the boat, but I don't have a truck. I don't really have steady access to a truck either. I don't plan on keeping the Olds around that long, but if it can be converted into a towing vehicle, I can insure it under my dad's name for $200 a year and only use it for towing.

OTOH again, my dad wants to buy a beat up Jeep without any doors. Is it easier to upgrade that to tow a boat?

And for reference, the same setup has been used with several vehicles.

'93 Mazda MPV V6 with AWD and towing package = can tow.
'94 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo V6 with AWD = can not tow.
'02 Chevy Trailblazer I6 with AWD = can tow.
 
Boat? BOAT? BOAT?

You want to talk about a boat check this out....

I need to take out a mortgage on the house just to put gas into it!!!
 
The Olds should be able to tow a boat like you describe as-is. With a front wheel drive car, you're generally limited to 1,000 pounds or so. A vehicle's gross vehicle weight rating doesn't equate to its towing capacity, since a new F-150 can tow 9,600 pounds but a new F-250 Super Duty has a GVWR of 8,800 or so. What you would need is a proper hitch receiver, like you described (the tube bolted to the frame that has the two-inch square hole you put the hitch ball into), and wiring to operate the trailer lights. I'm not exactly sure at which weight trailer brakes come into play, but if your boat's trailer has them, they're electric and the car needs a controller for them as well.
 
BTW, I'm surprised the '94 Grand Cherokee can't tow. I'd think it would be able to tow more than the Mazda, in fact.
 
The Trailblazer was actually purchased by my uncle (previous owner of the water boat) because the Mazda's interior was falling apart and the Jeep couldn't handle the load.

He said it was because the Mazda had a towing package and the Jeep didn't, but my research says that the 4L AMC straight six in the Jeep is a terrific engine, a lot torquier than a 3L Mazda V6.

Now, looking at the back of the boat, I have a lot of overhang, probably 3-4 feet. The trailer hitches that I've seen seem to bolt onto the frame somewhere near the rear wheels, being that most cars only have 1-2 feet of overhang. Will that make a difference?

Also, will I need stiffer springs to handle the additional load?
 
When my dad put a trailer hitch onto our Caprice I believe he had to do som cutomizing of the hitch. He also never attempted to tow anything as large as that boat though...he just used his truck for anything bigger than a utility trailer :shrug:
 
Altron said:
The Trailblazer was actually purchased by my uncle (previous owner of the water boat) because the Mazda's interior was falling apart and the Jeep couldn't handle the load.

He said it was because the Mazda had a towing package and the Jeep didn't, but my research says that the 4L AMC straight six in the Jeep is a terrific engine, a lot torquier than a 3L Mazda V6.

Now, looking at the back of the boat, I have a lot of overhang, probably 3-4 feet. The trailer hitches that I've seen seem to bolt onto the frame somewhere near the rear wheels, being that most cars only have 1-2 feet of overhang. Will that make a difference?

Also, will I need stiffer springs to handle the additional load?
Click to expand...
Get a set of helper springs that are easily removable. If you just fit stiffer springs your ride will be awful when your not towing.
 
Nixy said:
When my dad put a trailer hitch onto our Caprice I believe he had to do som cutomizing of the hitch. He also never attempted to tow anything as large as that boat though...he just used his truck for anything bigger than a utility trailer :shrug:
Click to expand...

Previous owner towed a boat, albiet something in the ~15 foot area, not the ~20 foot area area.

By helper springs, are they like a second set of springs that fit between the trailing arms and the frame and increase the total value of K for the springs? Sounds like a really good idea, if it's possible to mount that many springs.
 
Altron said:
Previous owner towed a boat, albiet something in the ~15 foot area, not the ~20 foot area area.

By helper springs, are they like a second set of springs that fit between the trailing arms and the frame and increase the total value of K for the springs? Sounds like a really good idea, if it's possible to mount that many springs.
Click to expand...
Where they mount depends on the car, but you've got the idea.
 
So all the Oldsmobile forum people are saying that it can't tow.

Rated tow capacity is 1200, boat estimated weight is 3000-4000.

Dunno whether they're right though. The old hitch is just bolted onto the joint between the frame and the bumper, nothing sturdy. I can't imagine that beefing up the suspension, brakes, tires, frame, and hitch wouldn't increase towing capacity.

However, they also said that the GVW is the maximum weight of car+trailer. The GVW on the 200-4R is 6,000, which makes sense, because car is about 4,500 and another 1,200 trailer, with a 5% safety cushion.

What's the approximate cost of an engine/transmission replacement? If it's cheaper than buying a light truck and gives me the towing capacity of one, I'm game. Assuming that someone can be conned into helping me with the install.

Professur said:
Chic, there's plenty of room to squeeze a 502 in there. And those wagons are famous for the weight transfer under acceleration. My second car was a Celebrity wagon. Lord knows I'd buy another one tomorrow if they made them.
Click to expand...
 
So, does anyone know what happened to Prof? Usually a boat thread doesn't stay below his radar this long, and I haven't seen him post too much.

Anyways, my friend helped me tighten the belts, and the A/C works fine. More eye candy for you. Takes two hours to wash, but it's worth it. Even cleaned off the fan shroud and some other dirty stuff in the engine compartment.

HPIM0989.jpg

HPIM0990.jpg

HPIM0991.jpg

HPIM0992.jpg

HPIM1002.jpg
 
Having a little trouble tracking down the exact rating, but Hidden Hitch makes and sells a 3500-5000 lbs hitch for that vehicle. I doubt they'd do that if you couldn't handle it. But you really need to address the shock situation before you put weight behind the bumper.

Yup, from what I've found, you're capable of 5,000 with the tow package (if equipped). That's (minimum) the tranny cooler and a reinforced suspension. But ... you haven't given us the info on the boat or it's trailer. Does the boat trailer have it's own brakes? What's the tongue weight? What kinds of roads? Long haul, or just around the corner?

I'll tell you straight. Upgrading the wagon to tow vehicle isn't worth it. If it's already capable ... great. But adding more than a tranny cooler (such as upgrading the tranny) is throwing good money after bad. And Jeeps aren't good tow vehicles either. Suspension's too soft. Something like an Explorer or Jimmy at the least.
 
I don't know anything about the trailer other than that it has two axles and a '02 Chevy Trailblazer is capable of towing it. I don't recall brakes, but we had an old trailer for several years and then got a new one which we only used for about a week before we put it in storage (where it's been for nearly 2 years). All I know is that it's a Renken boat, about 20' long, from the eighties. The trailer is slightly oversized for the boat, rated to handle the next step up, and has two axles.

There MAY be brakes, in fact I think that there are, because I strongly recall small metal tubes running along it, but I don't know all that much about them. It's a six hour drive to get to the place where it is, and if I take it out of storage, I need to tow it somewhere. I do know that the trailer is only two years old and is in good condition.

I think that I'm going to use the Trailblazer this summer, which will give me until next summer to figure out something on my own.

For roads, the more I can go, the better, but I'd only really be taking very short trips, less than a mile.

How do helper springs attach? Just jack the car up and slip them between the trailing arms and the frame?

What about a transmission oil cooler? Does it need it's own pump or do you just get something like this and mount it to the frame somewhere?
 
Tranny cooler. You've two skinny tubes on one tank of your radiator. They're the feed and return lines for tranny fluid. They get fluid pumped from the tranny, run it through a part of the rad dumping heat into the coolant, and returning to the tranny.

You install the tranny cooler somewhere in the airflow, usually in front of the rad. Kits usually come with zip ties that go right through the rad and have a large pad/washer to hold them. You cut the feed line (VERY IMPORTANT) and splice the cooler inline. Don't put the cooler on the return line .... unless you want to rebuild the tranny in the near future.

The whole point is to keep the tranny fluid from overheating. But it needs to be warm to work. By putting the cooler ahead of the rad in the series, you can dump more heat into air instead of your coolant, and if it's cold and your tranny cooler is doing too good a job, the coolant can heat the fluid back up that extra bit to the right temp. Installing it on the return line means that in winter, your tranny fluid would pretty much stay cold, if it didn't gel up completely.
 
Altron said:
How do helper springs attach? Just jack the car up and slip them between the trailing arms and the frame?
Click to expand...
Prof's got you covered on the tranny cooler. It's an important piece, don't skimp on it.

Re the helper springs: If you have (as I assume you do) coil springs, helper coils clamp to the axle (as far aoutboard as you can place them) with what are essentially large muffler clamps. Leaf springs, OTOH usually bolt on half of another leaf. Note that they will generally be rated by extra weight capacity. this refers to tongue weight, not total weight of the trailer.

Other possibilities are air shocks (I've never seen a pair that didn't leak myself) and shocks with springs on them (called coilovers) which are a bad idea if you're not going to take them off when you're not towing. Basically, none of this stuff is for increasing the towing capacity as much as to keep the vehicle from sagging under the load.
 
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