Officials Say U.S. Wiretaps Exceeded Law

blablabla... I don't know anything but what is fed to me by Ze-Party... blablabla...
The immunity was granted to encourage the telecoms who were otherwise hesitant to cooperate with the government's request to turn over information to do so without fear of having to defend themselves against unfounded, time-consuming and finance-consuming lawsuits filed by foaming-at-the-mouth-lefties and their ACLU lawyers who were quick to claim their rights were violated by the FISA Act.
Your BDS-borne conspiracy theories have no basis in fact. :shrug:
The government has the right to acquire what evidence it needs through the proper legal means. The wiretapping was coerced from the telecom companies by the government without a search warrant. A search warrant is required, even by King George. :p

Meh... why am I debating this with you. It is obviously over your head. Go read a few books for yourself on The Constitution and law and get back to me when you're ready. I can't walk you through this forever. I've got other things to do. :rolleyes:

This is like explaining gravity to a toddler. I'm exhausted just making the effort.
 
The government has the right to acquire what evidence it needs through the proper legal means. The wiretapping was coerced from the telecom companies by the government without a search warrant. A search warrant is required, even by King George. :p

You really need to read THIS so you can learn a bit about the FISA law. Like it or not, there is NO need for a court order for an investigation or wiretap under FISA.

18. Does FISA authorize surveillance without a court order?

Yes. In general, the Justice Department may engage in electronic surveillance to collect FII without a court order for periods up to one year. 50 U.S.C. § 1802. There must be no "substantial likelihood" that the intercepted communications include those to which a U.S. person is a party. § 1802(a)(1)(B).

Such electronic surveillance must be certified by the Attorney General and then noticed to the Senate and House intelligence committees. § 1802(a)(2). A copy of the certification must be filed with the FISC, where it remains sealed unless (a) an application for a warrant with respect to it is filed, or (b) the legality of the surveillance is challenged in another federal district court under § 1806(f). § 1802(a)(3). Common carriers must assist in the surveillance and maintain its secrecy. § 1802(a)(4).

In emergencies, the Attorney General may authorize immediate surveillance but must "as soon as practicable, but not more than twenty-four hours" later, seek judicial review of the emergency application. § 1805(e).

Meh... why am I debating this with you.

That is a valid question seeing that you do not understand the tenets of the FISA law.

You might also wish to read THIS PAGE

Federal Intelligence Court Rules Warrantless Wiretapping Legal. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review has ordered the release of a redacted opinion. The federal intelligence court ruled in August, 2008 that warrantless wiretapping of international phone calls and the interception of e-mail messages were permissible. Giving support to the Protect America Act, the Court found that "foreign intelligence surveillance possesses characteristics that qualify" for an exception in the interest of "national security". For more information, see EPIC's page on Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. (Jan. 15)
 
The Bush administration may have passed into history, but its legal briefs linger on. Earlier this month, a federal court held that an Islamic charity could proceed with a lawsuit alleging it was subject to warrantless surveillance by the NSA—and ordered that the government turn over classified documents for review by the judge.

On the eve of the presidential inauguration, however, the Justice Department filed a motion urging the court to stay that ruling pending an appeal, citing the risk of irreparable harm to national security.

At the heart of the legal battle is a secret document accidentally turned over to lawyers for the Al Haramain Islamic Foundation, showing that the charity—which the government has classified as a "Specially Designated Terrorist Group"—was subject to warrantless surveillance, in violation of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act as it stood when the surveillance occurred. The Justice Department successfully argued that the document was protected by the state secrets privilege, and so couldn't be used by Al Haramain to establish grounds on which to challenge the legality of the wiretapping.

But Judge Vaughn Walker, whose court has been hearing both this case and the more widely publicized EFF lawsuits against NSA-friendly telecoms, allowed lawyers for Al Haramain to submit unclassified evidence to establish that they'd been targeted, reasoning that the state secrets privilege was preempted by explicit provisions within FISA allowing "aggrieved persons" to have their cases reviewed in judges' chambers. The point of providing for in camera review, after all, was to permit the court to consider documents that would otherwise be state secrets. Earlier this month, Walker found that Al Haramain had provided enough evidence to trigger the FISA review clause, and ordered the government to both hand over the document that kicked off the litigation, and to begin the process of securing clearances for Al Haramain's attorneys, so that they could be given limited access to classified information in order to participate in the case.

The Justice Deparment isn't happy with that, and they're asking Walker to suspend his orders pending an appeal of that ruling. Noting that "secrecy is a one-way street," the government's motion argues that there will be no effective remedy on appeal once privileged information has been disclosed. Moreover, it argues that even if the "sealed document" at the heart of the case is only reviewed in chambers, any further action in the case would be tantamount to disclosure, because the appellate court recognized the government's privilege "not merely as to the 'content' of the sealed document but over the fact of whether or not plaintiffs had been subject to the alleged surveillance." That fact, of course, would be implicitly revealed by Walker's determination of whether the suit should proceed after reviewing the document.

There is, to be sure, an element of farce here. Not only has the document itself already been seen by uncleared parties, but as plaintiffs' attorney Jon Eisenberg observed this summer, copies of the document were sent to members of Al Haramain's board of directors located overseas. As far as anyone knows, those copies have not been retrieved. The government appears to be trying to close the barn door after the horse has not only left, but boarded a plane to Saudi Arabia.

Still more dismaying to the government is the prospect of further disclosures to Al Haramain's attorneys. Even if those lawyers were granted security clearances, the motion notes, actual access to classified documents typically requires a further "need to know" determination by an executive branch official. "The NSA Director has further determined," the motion somewhat drily observes, "that it does not serve a governmental function... to disclose the classified NSA information at issue in this case simply to assist the plaintiffs’ counsel."
The DOJ also takes issue with Walker's broader legal reasoning. "No court," the motion argues, "has held that an assertion of the state secrets privilege is preempted by statutory law—an issue that is plainly of constitutional dimension because the judgment made by Executive branch officials responsible for national security matters to protect certain information is rooted in the Article II powers of the President."

Attorneys for both Al Haramain and the Justice Department—now part of the Obama administration—will appear before Walker in a hearing this Friday.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/01/doj-seeks-to-block-warrantless-wiretap-ruling.ars

We wrote earlier about the still-murky significance of a FISA court's ruling that a law passed by Congress in 2007, giving the president the power to conduct warrantless wiretaps, is constitutional.

And now Russ Feingold, the Wisconsin senator who has led Democrats' efforts to oppose Bush on the issue, has weighed in to help make the case that the decision is limited in its implications.

In a statement just distributed to reporters, Feingold declared that the court's decision "in no way validates or bolsters the president's illegal warrantless wiretapping program."

He continued:

It did not support the President's claim of inherent constitutional authority to violate the law. In fact, the court explicitly stated that "we caution that our decision does not constitute an endorsement of broad-based, indiscriminate executive power."

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/01/feingold_wiretap_ruling_no_big_deal.php
 
The (Obama) Justice Deparment isn't happy with that, and they're asking Walker to suspend his orders pending an appeal of that ruling. Noting that "secrecy is a one-way street," the (Obama) government's motion argues that there will be no effective remedy on appeal once privileged information has been disclosed. Moreover, it argues that even if the "sealed document" at the heart of the case is only reviewed in chambers, any further action in the case would be tantamount to disclosure, because the appellate court recognized the government's privilege "not merely as to the 'content' of the sealed document but over the fact of whether or not plaintiffs had been subject to the alleged surveillance." That fact, of course, would be implicitly revealed by Walker's determination of whether the suit should proceed after reviewing the document.

There is, to be sure, an element of farce here. Not only has the document itself already been seen by uncleared parties, but as plaintiffs' attorney Jon Eisenberg observed this summer, copies of the document were sent to members of Al Haramain's board of directors located overseas. As far as anyone knows, those copies have not been retrieved. The (Obama) government appears to be trying to close the barn door after the horse has not only left, but boarded a plane to Saudi Arabia.

Still more dismaying to the (Obama) government is the prospect of further disclosures to Al Haramain's attorneys. Even if those lawyers were granted security clearances, the motion notes, actual access to classified documents typically requires a further "need to know" determination by an executive branch official. "The NSA Director has further determined," the motion somewhat drily observes, "that it does not serve a governmental function... to disclose the classified NSA information at issue in this case simply to assist the plaintiffs’ counsel."

The (Obama) DOJ also takes issue with Walker's broader legal reasoning. "No court," the motion argues, "has held that an assertion of the state secrets privilege is preempted by statutory law—an issue that is plainly of constitutional dimension because the judgment made by Executive branch officials responsible for national security matters to protect certain information is rooted in the Article II powers of the President."

Attorneys for both Al Haramain and the (Obama)Justice Department—now part of the Obama administration—will appear before Walker in a hearing this Friday.

So the Obama DOJ is in full agreement with the Bush DOJ and is vigorously defending against this case. Again, it seems that its okay when your guy does exactly what Bush did.
 
I don't know, but Jim and you seem to think someone stated it is ok. Where did that happen?
 
Shouldn't some librul in this thread say "if Chimpy did it, then Barky can do it"?

Ohhhh, hesh my mouth. I believe it was said. :shrug:

Where Cerise? Where was it said?

You seem to be ignoring the fact that 0bama has been compiling his enemies list:

What makes you think I'm ignoring the news?

Civil liberties infringements are suddenly O.K. with you?

Where did I say that?

So are you ready to admit you were wrong when you said Bush was just wiretapping known terrorists yet? I asked this before but you seem to be ignoring the facts for some reason.
 
Just curious... if Cerise had posted nothing at all about Bush, and simply posted the article... what would you have had to say about it then?
 
Where Cerise? Where was it said?

#34


What makes you think I'm ignoring the news?

Where did I say that?


I didn't say you did.
A "?" at the end of a sentence makes it a question.

But since you brought it up, how do you feel about 0bama's infringements of civil liberties? What is your opinion on 0bama's Domestic Spy Program?


So are you ready to admit you were wrong when you said Bush was just wiretapping known terrorists yet? I asked this before but you seem to be ignoring the facts for some reason.


I wasn't wrong. You are.

:shrug:
 

He makes a good point. You obvously don't have a problem with warrantless wiretaps.

I didn't say you did.
A "?" at the end of a sentence makes it a question.

But since you brought it up, how do you feel about 0bama's infringements of civil liberties? What is your opinion on 0bama's Domestic Spy Program?

I believe wiretaps should require awarrant as I already stated.

I wasn't wrong. You are.

:shrug:

No Cerise. It has been clearly proven in this thread that Bush was spying on far more than known terrorists. That makes you wrong.
 
So if it turns out that the Obama administration is carrying out warrantless wiretaps, as it currently appears, that would be a point of contention between you and the admin?
 
Yep, sure would. Seems pretty unrealistic to support everything a pres does regardless of your political orientation.
 
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