On Obama, Guantanamo, and the rights of terrorists

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
This guy has Obama pretty well sized up. He doesn't know what to do with the terrorists and has no ideas on the subject. Maybe he should simply transfer them to Chicago where they can blend in with the rest of the thugs and criminal element before they commit their next atrocity.

Obama and Philosophy 101
On national security, Obama sounds more like a precocious college student than a great leader.


By Mario Loyola

With its myriad of “desk officers” and “stovepipes,” the hierarchy of the executive branch is well-suited for managing stability. But when new problems arise, it tends to take them piecemeal, often with little consideration of how they are interrelated or of the larger historical questions at stake. At the White House — which in the modern era has become a permanent campaign perpetually harried by the crisis of the moment — there is little time for meditation on ultimate historical issues. As a result, the nation has become woefully bereft of the capacity for choice on a historical scale.

A great leader can overcome this inertia by challenging the people to tackle the most fundamental and difficult issues of the age. The attacks of September 11 left many such issues in their wake — take for example that of how to handle terror suspects. Obama announced that he would be closing Guantanamo within a year, leaving himself just that much time to solve one of the most difficult issues of the War on Terror. But pending the administration’s internal review, Obama’s comments on this issue have been mostly ornamental. To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, he doesn’t have a lot to say, but he says it charmingly.

Before September 11, there was a difference between a prisoner of war and a criminal defendant.

Prisoners of war are normally held until the cessation of hostilities in order to prevent their returning to the fight. This is true even if they are completely innocent of wrongdoing — in which case they enjoy many protections and privileges under the Geneva Conventions. But early release is not one of them. In wartime, the overriding concern becomes public safety.

Criminal defendants, on the other hand, have always been afforded rights to a speedy trial and to confront witnesses, and other protections of the justice system, because in peacetime, the overriding concern becomes individual liberty.

Because terrorists blur the distinction between the two categories, their attorneys invoke both sets of protections. As a result, terrorists stand to accumulate the protections we offer to each category, and stand to wind up in a better position than if they were just one or the other.

But we can’t give terror suspects the full privileges of prisoners-of-war status, because in doing so we would vitiate a key purpose of the Geneva Conventions: to create incentives for soldiers to comply with the laws of war. If even terrorists who hide among civilians and intentionally target them are afforded Geneva protections, why should any soldier abide by the rules of war?

Similarly, terrorist criminals cannot be allowed to benefit from the fact that they are more dangerous than common criminals. And even when we know that they have committed crimes, our evidence may be in the form of “intel” that is vital to ongoing investigations, or that “belongs” to a foreign government, making it impossible to prosecute them in a normal way.

The Bush administration took upon itself the task of devising a balanced, rational, and ethical scheme for dealing with this new kind of detainee — at least that’s what they tried to do. But Bush didn’t go to Congress until adverse federal-court rulings forced him to.

That was a mistake. Expanding preventative detentions beyond “prisoners of war” to broader populations that seem more like criminal defendants can only constitute a dramatic expansion of state power. This is especially true because holding them until the “cessation of hostilities,” when no formal surrender will ever be forthcoming, is potentially the same as a life sentence for everybody detained on suspicion of terrorist activity. The threat to individual liberty is obvious.

The resulting dilemma strikes at the heart of our social contract, and implicates the eternal conflict between individual liberty and state authority. Only “the people in Congress assembled” should decide where to strike the balance.

Obama could arguably base his entire criticism of Bush’s Guantanamo policies on this analysis. Instead, when 60 Minutes recently asked him to respond to former Vice President Cheney’s criticism of his Guantanamo policy, what viewers got was a sophomoric talking point drawn almost verbatim from the Democratic party’s 2008 convention platform:

I think that Vice President Cheney has been at the head of a movement whose notion is somehow that we can’t reconcile our core values, our Constitution, our belief that we don’t torture, with our national security interests.​

Dick Cheney thinks no such thing, nor do any of his supporters. What we do think is that it is sometimes difficult to reconcile public safety with the rights of the individual. One of the most profound insights of Enlightenment political philosophy is that the conflict between individual liberty and public security is an unavoidable attribute of government.


In his timeless essay On Liberty (1869), John Stuart Mill argues that “the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection.” The purpose of Mill’s essay — which traces the history of the conflict between “Liberty and Authority” — is to demonstrate that any exercise of government power can come only at the expense of individual liberty, and is therefore justifiable only on grounds of public safety. A moment’s reflection suffices to see how crucial this idea is to the whole conservative philosophy of limited government.

The 2008 Democratic party platform states: “In recent years, we’ve seen an Administration put forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand. The Democratic Party rejects this dichotomy.”

How childish. This is not a false choice. It is a fundamental choice — and sometimes a very difficult choice. It is the same species of choice that Abraham Lincoln put to Congress in his little-noticed but crucial address of July 4, 1861, when — barely four months into office — he had to justify the arguably unconstitutional measures with which he had responded to the secession of the southern states. These included his suspension of habeas corpus without an act of Congress, in order to allow sweeping summary detentions of suspected Confederate sympathizers in Union states, about which he said, “Are all the laws but one to go unexecuted, and the Government itself go to pieces lest that one be violated?”

Now that was a difficult question for the people to consider. Lincoln went to the Congress to seek its imprimatur for the measures he felt necessary. Historic conflicts between individual liberty and public security can only legitimately be settled by the people. The role of great leaders is to put such choices to the people in the starkest and most historical terms.

Instead, Obama chooses terms like these: “How many terrorists have actually been brought to justice under the philosophy that is being promoted by Vice President Cheney?”

He’s missing the whole point. Terror suspects are not just criminal defendants. It’s not simply a question of justice. They must be detained preventatively — as a matter of public safety — and we need a constitutionally valid and ethical framework to do it. The capacity of even a small cell of these people to inflict devastation on the scale of Pearl Harbor has already been demonstrated. That is the whole reason we are fighting — and killing — illiterate “Taliban” teenagers day after day on the other side of the world.

In this exchange from the 60 Minutes interview, the dilemma seems finally to be dawning on the president:

PRESIDENT OBAMA: The whole premise of Guantanamo promoted by Vice President Cheney was that somehow the American system of justice was not up to the task of dealing with these terrorists. I fundamentally disagree with that. Now, do these folks deserve Miranda rights? Do they deserve to be treated like a shoplifter down the block? Of course not.

STEVE KROFT: What do you do with those people?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, I think we’re going to have to figure out a mechanism to make sure that they not released and do us harm. But— do so in a way that is consistent with both our traditions, sense of due process, international law.​

Well, well, well. He slams Cheney for thinking the justice system can’t handle these terrorists, and then in the next breath admits that the justice system can’t handle these terrorists. After all, what does the justice system consist of if not Miranda rights, and treating all suspects impartially (like the shoplifter down the block), and the whole panoply of protections we offer criminal defendants? If the terrorists deserve habeas corpus rights, then why don’t they deserve Miranda rights? And who gets to decide exactly what they deserve — the president? And on top of everything, Obama even recognizes the need for preventative detention. What “mechanism to make sure that they are not released and do us harm” does he think he’s going to “figure out”? By this point I can’t even imagine what Obama thinks he disagrees with Cheney about.

The fact is that Obama’s decision to close Guantanamo has solved nothing but a cosmetic problem — just like the decision to drop the term “enemy combatants” without changing anything substantial about their legal status.

Obama is emerging as a master of cosmetics. But he shows little sign of really understanding the questions that his predecessors faced, nor of how difficult those questions are. Now he has to focus on them, understand them, and come up with answers — and he will still need to put the matter before Congress so the people can choose where to strike the balance. Let’s hope he’s precocious enough to accomplish all of that in his freshman year.


— Mario Loyola, a former adviser at the Pentagon and in the U.S. Senate, is a visiting fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.
 
Your guys seems pretty naive about the situation.

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico - Many detainees locked up at Guantanamo were innocent men swept up by U.S. forces unable to distinguish enemies from noncombatants, a former Bush administration official said Thursday.

"There are still innocent people there," Lawrence B. Wilkerson, a Republican who was chief of staff to then-Secretary of State Colin Powell, told The Associated Press. "Some have been there six or seven years."

Wilkerson, who first made the assertions in an Internet posting on Tuesday, told the AP he learned from briefings and by communicating with military commanders that the U.S. soon realized many Guantanamo detainees were innocent but nevertheless held them in hopes they could provide information for a "mosaic" of intelligence.

Some 800 men have been held at Guantanamo since the prison opened in January 2002, and 240 remain. Wilkerson said two dozen are terrorists

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29778047/
 
However, she's spot on. :shrug:

"We visited the Detainees camps and we saw the jails, where they shower, how the(y) recreate themselves with movies, classes of art, books. It was very interesting," Mendoza wrote of Gitmo. "I didn't want to leave, it was such a relaxing place, so calm and beautiful."
 
Maybe he should simply transfer then to Chicago where they can blend in with the rest of the thugs and criminal element before they commit their next atrocity.

oh noes the big city with its thugs and all!

better let them muslim women-haters hide out in the country with all their fellow right wing extremists.
 
She's from Hugo's Venezuela.

dayanamendozac.jpg



She probably thought she had found paradise.


However, I'm sure Muslim Extremists would have as wonderful a time sawing her head off. :shrug:
 
9/11 suspects: 'We are terrorists to the bone'

"We fight you over defending Muslims, their land, their holy sites, and their religion as a whole,"

"Your intelligence apparatus, with all its abilities ... failed to discover our military attack plans before the blessed 11 September operation ... Why then should you blame us, holding us accountable and putting us on trial?"

They criticize the U.S. for fighting "from behind roadblocks, trenches and warplanes" rather than face-to-face and describe Islam as "a religion of fear" for Jews, Christians and pagans.

"We are terrorists to the bone. So, many thanks to God," they write.

'We have news for you, the news is: You will be greatly defeated in Afghanistan and Iraq and that America will fall, politically, militarily, and economically. Your end is very near and your fall will be just as the fall of the towers on the blessed 9/11 day. We will raise from the ruins, God willing. We will leave this imprisonment with our noses raised high in dignity, as the lion emerges from his den. We shall pass over the blades of the sword into the gates of heaven.'


Wait just a minute. What in the hell? Did he say something about failing to discover their 9-11 attack plans? Hasn't anyone told him the Boooooosh! administration attacked WTC and the Pentagon? They are NOT GUILTY!! Let them goooooo!!


Some Guantanamo prisoners could be released in U.S.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Some of the Guantanamo Bay prisoners could be released into the United States while others could be put on trial in the American court system, Attorney General Eric Holder said on Wednesday.
 
So far...the only opposing ideas is effectivly to 'sweep them under the GitMo rug' - they don't exist, don't look at them - as long as we don't look at them, the problem doesn't exist.

The issue is that the problem does exist..and nobody but Obama is offering any way out of it.

Keeping them in GitMo until they all die of natural or unnatural causes is not a solution...but it is the one being implemented now, eh.
 
I personally would like to hear Mr. Loyola's answer to the Gitmo problem. Until he does post one..all he's doing is bleating. It's well-educated and written bleating, but simply noise nonetheless.
 
Cerise, what are you trying to say? Pageant chick thinks it's a nice place so therefore it's ok to keep innocent people locked up?
 
She's from Hugo's Venezuela.

dayanamendozac.jpg



She probably thought she had found paradise.


However, I'm sure Muslim Extremists would have as wonderful a time sawing her head off.

i'm sure i'd having a wonderful time doing other things to, er, with her.

giggity.
 
SOURCE

Miss Universe blog post on 'fun' at Gitmo vanishes

By ANDREW O. SELSKY, Associated Press Writer Andrew O. Selsky, Associated Press Writer – Wed Apr 1, 7:03 pm ET

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico – Miss Universe's blog posting about having fun at Guantanamo Bay has vanished from the pageant's Web site as embarrassed officials try to quash what they call a misunderstanding.

A flurry of critical commentary and news stories over the Venezuelan beauty queen's lighthearted post underscores that the military prison at Guantanamo remains a damaging symbol for the United States.

Dayana Mendoza's now-deleted late-March posting sounded like a note home from a spring breaker.

"We hung out with the guys from the East Coast and they showed us the boat inside and out, how they work and what they do, we took a ride around the land and it was a loooot of fun!" Mendoza wrote.

"The water in Guantanamo Bay is soooo beautiful!" she wrote at another point.

Those descriptions did not refer to the detention center for alleged terrorists, which occupies a sliver of the 45-square-mile (116-square-kilometer) base.

In a brief mention of the detainee camp, Mendoza said her group "saw the jails, where they shower, how they recreate themselves with movies, classes of art, books." She described the prison only as "very interesting."

In place of her posting Wednesday was a statement from Paula M. Shugart, president of the Miss Universe Organization, who said Mendoza and Miss USA Crystle Stewart had gone to Guantanamo on a USO tour to boost the morale of U.S. troops.

Shugart said Mendoza, in her post about having a fun trip, was referring to "the hospitality she received while meeting the members of the U.S. military and their families."

Still, the affair angered some Venezuelans, who said Mendoza had harmed their country's image by speaking positively about Guantanamo, where 240 men remain locked up by the U.S.

The beauty queens weren't the first celebrities to go to the isolated U.S. Naval base in southeast Cuba. Country rocker Charlie Daniels was there in 2002, singing "The devil went down to Gitmo, he was looking for some Taliban" in front of cheering soldiers.

The Victoria's Secret models visited in December 2007, and participated in a Christmas parade. Portland rockers Everclear were there in 2008 and Art Alexakis, the band's leader, said "we had a great time."

Mendoza was crowned Miss Universe last year at a pageant in Nha Trang, Vietnam.

___

On the Net:

Miss Universe's blog: http://www.missuniverse.com/missuniverse/blog.php
 
Father? What does regret mean?

Well, son, the funny thing about regret is, it's better to regret something you have done than to regret something you haven't done. By the way, if you see your mom this weekend, would you be sure and tell her...


SATAN! SATAN! SATAN!
 
Father? What does regret mean?

Well, son, the funny thing about regret is, it's better to regret something you have done than to regret something you haven't done. By the way, if you see your mom this weekend, would you be sure and tell her...


SATAN! SATAN! SATAN!

You know that was exactly what I was thinking when I typed that!
 
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