origins of terrorism

[Luis G]

Who's the guilty one?

terrorists exists because they have a cause, are they guilty for fighting for it?
i mean, they sure hate other countries for a reason (and it isn't certainly "freedom" as many of you are going to say).


(the purpose of this is not to start a flame war, i just want to know what you guys think, we have many members from all around the world, i want to hear their opinions).

PD. i don't support terrorism either.

 

[Shadowfax]

I don't think you can point out people who are actaully 'guilty' on causing terrorism to occur. Terrorist have such different ideals. Some want money, while others have political motives.

And terrorist don't have to hate countries. It can also be a certain group of people, or a certain government. Just look at the IRA in Ireland, of the ETA in Spain. They operate within the country, while Al Queda operates in several countries.

Unfortunately there is no way to stop terrorism completely. If I'd get the idea to attack some building somewhere in the world, I could succeed in doing so. All that is needed is some sick mind, or really strong ideals.

 

[PT]

I think of terrorists the same way I think of anyone that is involved in a war. In their mind, they are doing the absolute right thing to do. Because we see it different, does not mean that they are wrong. People have been fighting wars for centuries, and most of the time, both sides think they are completely justified in their beliefs.

Even in Nazi Germany, the people thought that Hitler was the leader they had always wanted. They followed him with blind faith, as he would provide them with the future they thought they wanted. I saw an interesting show about Hitler a few months ago, he was a very persuasive person, and not forcefully, not threatening, he could speak for 8 hours at a time, and have his audience captivated throughout. Just because we look back at the history now, and see the atrocities he commited, the majority of the country, and certainly the military believed in him 100%. Why else would so many follow his orders?

So to answer the question, who can we blame, no one, and everyone. They use a different method to acheive their goals, not one that most of us see as acceptable, but one that they certainly see as necessary, necessary because they don't have the manpower to declare or fight a war against the people that they consider enemies.

 

[Ardsgaine]

Good grief...

Here's a great article written by a good friend of mine. In it he quotes several terrorists who reveal explicitly why they hate us and why they are fighting. Essentially, they hate us because we want to live, i.e., because we love life and because we have chosen to pursue happiness in this world. Here are the quotes:

"Every Muslim, having a strong faith, should resolutely act against the egoistic power” (Mullah Mohammed Omar, Taliban supreme leader, appealing to Muslims worldwide to fight the United States - British Broadcasting Corp. Web site).

"The Americans love Pepsi-Cola, we love death" (Afghan mujahedin fighter - Time).

"The Americans are fighting so they can live and enjoy the material things in life. But we are fighting so we can die in the cause of God” (Mohammad Hussein Mostassed, Taliban official).

"The love of this world is wrong,...You should love the other world, and you should not be afraid to die, because to die in the right cause and go to the other world, that's praiseworthy" (Bin Laden).

To paraphrase Ayn Rand: they don't want to live, they want us to die. That is their motivation: hatred and love of death. (It was also the motivation of the Nazis, but I'll save that for another time.)

 

[Luis G]

"Every Muslim, having a strong faith, should resolutely act against the egoistic power” (Mullah Mohammed Omar, Taliban supreme leader, appealing to Muslims worldwide to fight the United States - British Broadcasting Corp. Web site).

I suppose he's talking about the "egoistic power" of the US.

"The Americans love Pepsi-Cola, we love death" (Afghan mujahedin fighter - Time).

I don't think he love death in itself, he loves death in a war.

"The Americans are fighting so they can live and enjoy the material things in life. But we are fighting so we can die in the cause of God” (Mohammad Hussein Mostassed, Taliban official).

So what's wrong with them fighting for their beliefs and be willing to die for it?, almost every country in America fought to gain its independence because that was their cause.

"The love of this world is wrong,...You should love the other world, and you should not be afraid to die, because to die in the right cause and go to the other world, that's praiseworthy" (Bin Laden).

He's talking about their religion, even a christian will agree with Bin Laden on that one.

 

[PT]

Israel is undoubtedly sore point number one. Muslims around the world watch as the United States professes to play mediator between the Israelis and the Palestinians, yet our language is often far from impartial. If the Israelis occupy areas of disputed territory, official US statements and the media call the occupied areas "settlements," a term implying they are legitimate land holdings. A Palestinian suicide bomb attack is called a "terrorist act" while an Israeli assassination of a Palestinian suspect is a "targeted killing." Such distinctions alienate potential Muslim friends, and push others into the terrorists' camps.

Also fueling Muslim fears is the apparent ease with which first the Clinton administration, and now the Bush government, have shifted the United States' decades-old alliance with Pakistan in favor of that country's longtime enemy, Hindu-majority India. The reason for the change, many Pakistanis feel, lies in their country's diminished strategic importance

http://www.boston.com/news/packages/underattack/news/most_had_never_met_an_american.htm

You act as if dying for what you beleive in is bad, but hasn't America always done the same?

Give me Liberty or Give me Death. http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/henry-liberty.html

To give your life for your country, or your ideals, has been celebrated just as much in the United States as any arabic country, why else do you think there are Veterans Memorials in every major US city?

BTW, I am an American as well, and Damn proud to be one, I just happen to be open-minded.

 

[Ardsgaine]

I suppose he's talking about the "egoistic power" of the US.

Absolutely. We are, for the most part, a selfish people. That's why we're hated around the world. We love life and we live for our own individual happiness. It's a grievous sin in the eyes of many, but particularly in the eyes of those steeped in a medieval religion.

I don't think he love death in itself, he loves death in a war.

You think so, do you? I think that in your youthful innocence you do not comprehend the mind of a person who seeks only death.

So what's wrong with them fighting for their beliefs and be willing to die for it?

What he believes in is dying for Allah. There is no worldy goal that he is trying to achieve. He doesn't want Czechoslovakia, he wants to die. Americans, in our selfish pursuit of happiness, are an offense to the eyes of Allah, hence we must die. That is the cause of God in which he wishes to die.

almost every country in America fought to gain its independence because that was their cause.

We fought for political independence and the right to live free from the coercion of a tyrannical government. (A tyranny that was mild compared to what Muslims hold as the ideal form of government.) We did not fight in order to die. The deaths that the revolutionaries suffered were not an end in themselves, but a means to a better life. Here's a quote from Gen Patton that sums up the American attitude towards dying for a cause:

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -- General George S. Patton Jr.

We do not fight in order to die, we fight in order to win a better life. Do you see the difference?

"The love of this world is wrong,...You should love the other world, and you should not be afraid to die, because to die in the right cause and go to the other world, that's praiseworthy" (Bin Laden).

He's talking about their religion, even a christian will agree with Bin Laden on that one.[/quote]

Hahahah. Yes, yes... you are absolutely right! See my response to the thread about whether Islam is a defective civilization.

 

[Luis G]

You think so, do you? I think that in your youthful innocence you do not comprehend the mind of a person who seeks only death.

he wishes your death as much as you wish his, and he's willing to give her life in order to take yours.

What he believes in is dying for Allah. There is no worldy goal that he is trying to achieve. He doesn't want Czechoslovakia, he wants to die. Americans, in our selfish pursuit of happiness, are an offense to the eyes of Allah, hence we must die. That is the cause of God in which he wishes to die.

wrong, even Bin Laden has stated several times that he will not stop the terrorism until the US stops their crimes agains Palestine and other islamic nations.

We fought for political independence and the right to live free from the coercion of a tyrannical government. (A tyranny that was mild compared to what Muslims hold as the ideal form of government.) We did not fight in order to die. The deaths that the revolutionaries suffered were not an end in themselves, but a means to a better life. Here's a quote from Gen Patton that sums up the American attitude towards dying for a cause:

Yeah, and they fight for the above stated reasons and to keep their tirany that they love so much (you should not give a .... if they like it). And they don't fight to die, they fight to accomplish their goals, the difference is that they will die happily because of their religion.

Hahahah. Yes, yes... you are absolutely right! See my response to the thread about whether Islam is a defective civilization.

i saw your response, i'm an atheist and i think religions are foolish.

 

[Ardsgaine]

A Palestinian suicide bomb attack is called a "terrorist act" while an Israeli assassination of a Palestinian suspect is a "targeted killing."

Those two different phrases identify two very different things. Blowing up a bunch of kids in a pizza parlor is a completely different thing from assasinating some guy who spends his time manufacturing bombs that will be used to kill civilians.

Also fueling Muslim fears is the apparent ease with which first the Clinton administration, and now the Bush government, have shifted the United States' decades-old alliance with Pakistan in favor of that country's longtime enemy, Hindu-majority India. The reason for the change, many Pakistanis feel, lies in their country's diminished strategic importance

We have been friends with India since they gained their independence. It has nothing to do with their being Hindu, but with their being a constitutional republic. Why should we be better friends with a belligerent dictatorship?

You act as if dying for what you beleive in is bad, but hasn't America always done the same?

See my response to Luis.

Give me Liberty or Give me Death.

There is a whole world of difference between saying that you would rather die than live as a slave, and saying that you would rather die than live. The muslim battle cry could well be: give me death, or give me death.

To give your life for your country, or your ideals, has been celebrated just as much in the United States as any arabic country, why else do you think there are Veterans Memorials in every major US city?

Americans do not make a habit of sending people out to die a certain death as a battle tactic. Why do you think that suicide bombing is the primary weapon of the Islamic militants? They could kill just as many people in targeted attacks. Suicide bombing makes a philosophical statement. Two statements, in fact. The first is that muslims embrace death. As the one quote said, "we love death." The second is that their war is not simply against a state, but against a people. They don't just want to destroy Israel and the US as a political entities, they want to destroy them as a people. They want us to die.

BTW, I am an American as well, and Damn proud to be one, I just happen to be open-minded.

I am also open-minded... but only about things of which I'm uncertain.

 

[Jeslek]

What Ardsgaine said. Dude I love ya! If you were a chick I would kiss you. You say everything so nicely.

I will summarize in my own words:

[/siz]
[/siz]

Anyone blowing up kids is NOT right, regardless of how PuterTutor wants to phrase it. They are fucked in the head.

 

[Ardsgaine]

he wishes your death as much as you wish his, and he's willing to give her life in order to take yours.

But I don't wish his death. Not until he attacks the US. That's like saying that the guy who comes through my door to kill me wants my death just like I want his death. It completely ignores cause and effect.

wrong, even Bin Laden has stated several times that he will not stop the terrorism until the US stops their crimes agains Palestine and other islamic nations.

Bin Laden didn't discover Palestine as a cause until after 9/11. Before that his big thing was getting the infidel Americans out of the holy places in Saudi Arabia, Mecca and Medina. It wouldn't matter if we called back every American overseas, pulled back every battleship, every tank, took down every base, etc. We'd still be who we are, and they'd still want us dead.

Yeah, and they fight for the above stated reasons and to keep their tirany that they love so much (you should not give a .... if they like it). And they don't fight to die, they fight to accomplish their goals, the difference is that they will die happily because of their religion.

I don't give a ... if they like it. I just give a ... when they ... with us.

They fight to accomplish their goal, and their goal is to die in the cause of Allah. Allah's cause is to destroy the infidel. In other words, they don't want to live, they want us to die.

i saw your response, i'm an atheist and i think religions are foolish.

Well, there you go. I knew if we argued long enough we'd find something we agree on.

 

[Ardsgaine]

Dude I love ya! If you were a chick I would kiss you.

Are you threatening me!!???

 

[Jeslek]

I think another reason for Islamic people's shitty behavior is their youths... They see the Internet. They see cell phones, PDAs, games, movies, entertainment, and all of those are products of Western Civilization. I think they _want_ to be in, but are restrained by their society and people around them. Then they can only resort to one thing: jealousy. Jealously leads to fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to more anger. And eventually strong hatred and suicide bombings.

 

[Luis G]

But I don't wish his death. Not until he attacks the US. That's like saying that the guy who comes through my door to kill me wants my death just like I want his death. It completely ignores cause and effect.

he probly thinks you mess with him first, and no, it is not about having another religion or a different political/economical system, it is much more complex than that.

Well, there you go. I knew if we argued long enough we'd find something we agree on.

 

[Luis G]

Then they can only resort to one thing: jealousy. Jealously leads to fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to more anger. And eventually strong hatred and suicide bombings.

Of course masta Yoda.

 

[unclehobart]

Terrorist is what the big army calls the little army. They should be subject to the same rules of war as everything else. Spies get hung. Soldiers are shot at and killed if possible. Prisoners get jailed until it is resolved. Human rights trails are held and the guilty swing by the neck off of Tower Bridge.

 

[Ardsgaine]

Terrorist is what the big army calls the little army.

That obscures the difference between the kind of war that's being waged by terrorists and the kinds of war that have been waged by small armies in the past. Guerilla warfare doesn't have to be aimed at civilians. It can be aimed at military targets like the French Resistance in WWII. Terrorism is based on a particular philosophy that specifically identifies civilians as combatants in the war, and targets them for death as a battle tactic. It is a tactic designed to be used against democratic countries where the people have a voice in the government. The goal is to terrorize the populace into forcing the government to surrender. In Israel it has had the opposite effect, as it should in any self-respecting free country.

 

[HomeLAN]

I thought we'd had this discussion before.

 

[fury]

Terrorism is what happens when some middle eastern guy with an anger management problem suffers from constipation and in the heat of the moment calls for an attack on [insert large, expensive, or otherwise important building or other attraction here]

Osama "Oh shit, I gotta go to the can. OK, Allah, you stay right there! No, no. Stay!

Hughh.... Hmmmm.... grrrrr-huh! ARGHHH! I WANT TO BLOW UP SOMETHING! *Harggghhhhhh*

By the power vested in me by Allah, I command you to destroy the sun! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA-ohhhhh, god I can't stand the pain! *hgrrrrhgghghgh!* DESTROY IT NOW!

HGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh *humongous mega splash*

Umm... Allah, little help? Can you hand me my head towel, I ran out of toilet paper retard"

headbang

 

[Gato_Solo]

To come to an understanding of 'world events', you must understand cause and effect.

1. What is the definition of terrorism? No opinions, please. I can post a dictionary answer to that question, but I'll leave you folks to look that up yourselves.

2. What is an army? Once again, look up the definition.

3. What are the main principals of the Geneva Convention*?

4. What is the Law of Armed Conflict**? This may, or may not, be on the web, but the short version tells you what is and is not a legal target in a combat situation. Break any of these rules, as the pilot who bombed our Canadian allies in Afghanistan did, and you can be brought up on charges (don't start SBCANADA/Anakin. This isn't the place for that).

Once you get all of these facts together, you can begin to see what the difference between an army and a terrorist actually is.

Terrorists, as a rule, do not follow the rules of the Geneva Convention. If they did follow those rules...any of those rules...they would be called an army.
Any other argument on the subject is a waste of time.

*http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/1899b.htmGeneva Convention
**http://www.dm.af.mil/ja/operatio.htmLaw of Armed Conflict[/url]