Socialism = Communism

[BeardofPants]

You really might as well go outside, pick up a rock and argue with it. You might get farther.

Dunno, I think he has a better chance of gettin' the rock to agree with him.

 

[Gonz]

Alright, all you free thinkers. The great minds of OTC, I implore you:

Why don't you point out how they are NOT the same.

Come, prove an old kook wrong.

 

[chcr]

Alright, all you free thinkers. The great minds of OTC, I implore you:


Come, prove an old kook wrong.

Communism is like kindergarten. Nobody is particularly great at anything & we should all share.

Socialism is like college. We should all share our strengths to make the whole better. When we get someting we'll share the stuff that sucks & keep for ourselves the good stuff..

Why should I waste my time when it's already obvious that you understand that they are not the same?

 

[Gonz]

OK, then how about this.

You all know that I'm making a relative comparison between two styles of chicanery, so why all the crap?

 

[chcr]

OK, then how about this.

You all know that I'm making a relative comparison between two styles of chicanery, so why all the crap?

Keep trying.

 

[freako104]

OK, then how about this.

You all know that I'm making a relative comparison between two styles of chicanery, so why all the crap?

I may have learned wrong but doesnt socialism still have a form of a free market albeit the gov't doesnt use lassiez faire?

 

[Gonz]

It has a market. The noose tightens as the people are led into the trap of government cheese.

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. Hey, they do this already. Some crap about 3 toed 5 fingered spotted lizard fish or something

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. Kerry loves this one

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. Does 50%+ tax count?

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. Drunk driving & drug busts anybody

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state. FCC, FAA...I'm sensing a pattern

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. brownfields

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. suing pig farms is step one

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. hmmmm, HOMESCHOOLER UNITE!!!

Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels
The Communist Manifesto
Chapter 1 and Chapter 2

 

[freako104]

I like the wording. it does look good on paper. shame it doesnt seem to work out though. It has a market but how free is it? I thought people could sell what they wanted but the govt got a share in it.

 

[Gotnolegs]

I like the wording. it does look good on paper. shame it doesnt seem to work out though. It has a market but how free is it? I thought people could sell what they wanted but the govt got a share in it.

The problem Freak is that Gonz does not really understand the differences between Socialism and Communism. He writes them off as being the same without ever opening his mind to the fact that they are indeed different.

Socialist governments do work, socialist countries are successful and howevermuch our right wing extremists dislike it socialism is here to stay on the world scene.

Take a look at countries like the UK, Sweden, Spain, Norway (the list is actually fairly long) they are hardly comparable with Gonz's Communism, but are all socialist governments.

 

[brownjenkins]

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

this is actually more pro-free-market than it is socialist... like many other capitalist practices, inheritance dampens competition by giving a huge advantage based upon birthright... and not upon ability

 

[freako104]

The problem Freak is that Gonz does not really understand the differences between Socialism and Communism. He writes them off as being the same without ever opening his mind to the fact that they are indeed different.

Socialist governments do work, socialist countries are successful and howevermuch our right wing extremists dislike it socialism is here to stay on the world scene.

Take a look at countries like the UK, Sweden, Spain, Norway (the list is actually fairly long) they are hardly comparable with Gonz's Communism, but are all socialist governments.

ok that makes things easier for me to understand so thanks. I have heard even in America there are acutally hints of it. and honestly I had thought the UK was capitalist similar to our economic philosophy.

 

[Gonz]

The problem Freak is that Gonz does not really understand the differences between Socialism and Communism.

Why don't you point out how they are NOT the same.

REDISTRUBUTION of WEALTH should be a crime.

 

[Gotnolegs]

I see no reason to provide evidence for the fact that a large proportion of the governments of the world are not Communist. I have already shown that your arguments are complete crap lets just leave it at that eh?

If you can actually show me that the government in my country is in fact the same as the USSR throughout the cold war I'd love to see it, but if not I think I'll stick to that old fashioned idea of the burden of proof being upon the accuser. Of course that is something you've shown you disagree with so I'll expect you to argue...

 

[Gotnolegs]

ok that makes things easier for me to understand so thanks. I have heard even in America there are acutally hints of it. and honestly I had thought the UK was capitalist similar to our economic philosophy.

It is fairly similar. The UK is Socialist in ideals but capitalist in approach. The two are not mutually exclusive. As a country we encourage business, we encourage the generation of personal income (although not as strongly as during the Thatcher years), we encourage competition in the marketplace but we provide free or subsidised Education for all up to graduate level, we provide healthcare that is free at the point of delivery and we provide income for those who are unable to work. We also give money to a lot of people I don't think we should but that is related to specific government policy and not really related to this debate.

 

[Gonz]

the same as the USSR throughout the cold war

Now we get to the heart of the matter. You can't seperate communism from the Soviet Union. Do you think I'm saying the USSR is the same as Canada? That's not true. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm discussing the socio/economic similarities between to evil & corruptible systems of government that may look good on paper but are nothing more than a way to turn the system into a parent figure with a penchant for reasching into the childs pocket for loose change.

So you can't show a discernable difference between the two? I thought not.

 

[Gonz]

The two are not mutually exclusive. As a country we encourage business, we encourage the generation of personal income (although not as strongly as during the Thatcher years), we encourage competition in the marketplace but we provide free or subsidised Education for all up to graduate level, we provide healthcare that is free at the point of delivery and we provide income for those who are unable to work. We also give money to a lot of people I don't think we should but that is related to specific government policy and not really related to this debate.

Not mutually exclusive? Strictly speaking I suppose not. Yet, take away my carrot & I'll no longer pull the cart.


free or subsidised Education/we provide healthcare that is free/we provide income for those who are unable to work



FREE??? The doctors & nurses & lab folks & office personel & professors & teachers & administrators & capus police & the property for all these things don't get paid? BULLSHIT. It is not free. You take from those that do & give to those that don't.

Too bad I have to go chase my carrot now, this could finally get interesting.

 

[Gotnolegs]

Now we get to the heart of the matter. You can't seperate communism from the Soviet Union.

Oh I can, I'm just sticking to simple obvious stuff so you'll be able to follow.

Do you think I'm saying the USSR is the same as Canada? That's not true. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm discussing the socio/economic similarities between to evil & corruptible systems of government that may look good on paper but are nothing more than a way to turn the system into a parent figure with a penchant for reasching into the childs pocket for loose change.

That's funny because I could have sworn you said that Socialism and Communism were the very same thing...

So you can't show a discernable difference between the two? I thought not.

I simply don't have the inclination to try and prove a point that is obvious to anyone with half a fucking brain cell.

 

[Gotnolegs]

Not mutually exclusive? Strictly speaking I suppose not. Yet, take away my carrot & I'll no longer pull the cart.

If you think living off the dole is carrot enough for you then I wouldn't want you pulling my cart.

FREE??? The doctors & nurses & lab folks & office personel & professors & teachers & administrators & capus police & the property for all these things don't get paid? BULLSHIT. It is not free. You take from those that do & give to those that don't.

Of course they get paid, if you can't understand the difference between "free" and "free at the point of delivery" then this really is a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

Too bad I have to go chase my carrot now, this could finally get interesting.

I think not.

 

[rrfield]

Wow, I'm sorry I missed this one. Not much to add, just a few points.

If I remember college philosophy correctly Marx argued that yo get to communism a society had to go through two transitional stages first.

1) Capitalism.
2) Socialism.
and then
3) Communism.

So does that make America communist?

Also I've heard people say that communism sounds good on paper...I they are dead wrong because of one of of Marx's ideals. Marx states that after once all the infrastructure of a society is built, i.e. the roads, buildings, factories, etc, the need for innovation disappears and the workers will then be around to only maintain what has already been deveolped. I for one would not want to live in that world, even on paper.

 

[Gonz]

I simply don't have the inclination to try and prove a point that is obvious to anyone with half a fucking brain cell.

Becasue you can't. They are the same.

If you think living off the dole is carrot enough for you then I wouldn't want you pulling my cart.

Fine but they can at least clean up after the cart passes. Gas, grass or ass, nobody rides free.

if you can't understand the difference between "free" and "free at the point of delivery"

I clearly do understand the difference. You, sir, are the one lacking brain cells. Nothing is free but breathing.