Some perspective ...

[spike]

Glad to see that my absense hasn't meant a return to dignified debating.

Not that you ever would help in that area.

All of us here said, in one way or another, that GW had an abyssmal domestic policy.

You know Gonz, you get credit for distancing yourself from his domestic policy and admitting that you didn't agree with somethings but you hardly hinted that you thought it was abyssmal. There's really no way to characterize that as "All of us" since most of the conservatives here never questioned him on anything.

Only half of us are saying that about Obama.

Bush and Obama have pretty different policies.

 

[randomJACKASS]

Here's some Perspective on what Bush started in Iraquistan....

The cost of the wars Bushie started will soon reach a trillion dollars!

Combined, there have been about 5409 deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe this is only military casualties.

What have we gained from all this beyond a bunch of grieving mothers? Well we've pissed off an alienated a lot of the world, we have a continuing commitment to a futile and useless war, but there is an upside! Haliburton has made a lot of money and improved Dick Cheney's financial portfolio among other things, and lined the pockets of other companies the last administration had interest in! That's what America is really about isn't it Jim?

We all know that there were WMDs, but they were either destroyed in the bombing or the Iraqis hid them for future use! It was just the lying liberal media trying to slander fine decent Americans like Bush and Cheney!

Oh yeah, also most of our military equipment is now just about worn out and would cost far more to bring it home then to let it rot in the desert, or sell it to Iraqis so they can wage war on each other more efficiently and effectively.

I think it was all well worth it! Quite a sound investment that one! The economic trouble we face is obviously completely the fault of Clinton, Obama, and basically liberals, the Democratic party, and the welfare state we live in where most people are basically freeloaders!

What we REALLY need is a Republican in office who will start a bigger war to stimulate the economy, and deregulate Wall street and banking entirely, so they can find new and better ways to rip off the stupid and irresponsible American suckers....I mean consumers! Obviously we need to outlaw unions, relax regulation on the rights of workers, abolish minimum wage, and stop all charity health care (you pay or you die suckah!). Hell we should also bring back indentured servitude for people who can't pay their damn bills! Oh yeah and make Christianity the official state religion. You can choose any brand of Christianity you like, but you must adhere to at least one kind. Is that about right Jim?

Oh wait, I forgot, we need to make a law against faggots! Its just not natural! It needs to be a crime, in fact we should legislate all of what is permissible in the bedrooms of decent Gawd-a-fearin' Americans!

It's about time this country got its act together!

 

[jimpeel]

Here's some Perspective on what Bush started in Iraquistan....

What have we gained from all this beyond a bunch of grieving mothers? Well we've pissed off an alienated a lot of the world, we have a continuing commitment to a futile and useless war, but there is an upside! Haliburton has made a lot of money and improved Dick Cheney's financial portfolio among other things, and lined the pockets of other companies the last administration had interest in! That's what America is really about isn't it Jim?

America is about freedom.

A trillion dollars to free 27,000,000 people works out to about $37,037.00 per Iraqi. I find that a reasonable figure.

Why are you so dead set against people being freed from tyranny; and why do you feel that they do not deserve to be free nor enjoy the liberties that you do?

Are you one of those who feel that the Iraqi people cannot function as a free people and need a dictator to rule them? I certainly hope not.

 

[jimpeel]

While you're at it, try this:

VIDEO LINK

 

[randomJACKASS]

America is about freedom.

A trillion dollars to free 27,000,000 people works out to about $37,037.00 per Iraqi. I find that a reasonable figure.

Why are you so dead set against people being freed from tyranny; and why do you feel that they do not deserve to be free nor enjoy the liberties that you do?

Are you one of those who feel that the Iraqi people cannot function as a free people and need a dictator to rule them? I certainly hope not.

You know goddamn well that the primary motive for invading Iraq had exactly NOTHING to do with liberating them form tyranny, and if you don't know that you are an idiot and beyond hope! It was a side effect, but in no way was why we invaded. Only the blind and very naive would fall for that drivel!

 

[randomJACKASS]

Let me ask you this; if we are so into liberating people from tyranny for altruistic reasons, why have we not invaded Uganda and straightened them out?

 

[spike]

You know goddamn well that the primary motive for invading Iraq had exactly NOTHING to do with liberating them form tyranny, and if you don't know that you are an idiot and beyond hope! It was a side effect, but in no way was why we invaded. Only the blind and very naive would fall for that drivel!

No shit, and it's pretty damn questionable if the living and still there are even better off at all. Jim wants to call killing 100s of thousands and displacing millions of Iraqis "liberating".

If the last admins in charge even cared about freedom or liberty in the slightest there would have been vote on the first ballot "would you like the Americans to get out now?". Did that ever happen?

No it couldn't because every poll I've ever seen that asks the Iraqis that question gets a "Yes".

For quite some time the majority of Iraqis, the US soldiers, and the US people have wanted us out so who's freedom and liberty is Jim concerned about? He doesn't want to hear what the people want given a choice. He's all for dictating what people should do.....like as in a Dictator.

The Iraq invasion has been the biggest farce and stupidest war in recent history. I don't know who Jim thought he could fool with this crap about freeing people.

 

[MrBishop]

America is about freedom.

A trillion dollars to free 27,000,000 people works out to about $37,037.00 per Iraqi. I find that a reasonable figure.

Why are you so dead set against people being freed from tyranny; and why do you feel that they do not deserve to be free nor enjoy the liberties that you do?

Are you one of those who feel that the Iraqi people cannot function as a free people and need a dictator to rule them? I certainly hope not.

You have more people living in the USA today below the relative poverty line... a Trillion dollars would've gone pretty damn far at home too, eh.

 

[Inkara1]

You know goddamn well that the primary motive for invading Iraq had exactly NOTHING to do with liberating them form tyranny, and if you don't know that you are an idiot and beyond hope! It was a side effect, but in no way was why we invaded. Only the blind and very naive would fall for that drivel!

Out of curiosity... what IS the reason for invading Iraq, then?

 

[randomJACKASS]

To keep a presence in the middle-east, and force Iraq to be friendly to us and our interests. I will say that it does have a lot to do with oil, but also strategy and logistics. It's been an economic boon for every American company doing business over there.

Now when I mention Uganda, or it could be any third world shithole with human rights violations and atrocities committed on a daily basis, we do nothing, take almost no action at all, because it is not strategically important, or economically important to our interests.

Anybody who goes around thinking we are some kind of "bring of freedom to the oppressed nation" is a fool. We have done that I will agree whole heartedly that we have in many cases, but as for that being the motive, well that's plain ridiculous. There are always bigger reasons that have nothing to do with freedom.

 

[Inkara1]

At least you didn't just say "for the oil," "to avenge Saddam trying to assassinate Bush Sr." or "for the lulz." If it were for the oil, I'd have to ask where the oil is that we were supposed to get... and also mention that the vast bulk of the oil actually used in the US comes from within the western hemisphere.

 

[2minkey]

and also mention that the vast bulk of the oil actually used in the US comes from within the western hemisphere.

yes. and we're so pathetically dependent on it that we still have to go on round-the-world misadventures to keep our economy chugging.

this is also why the small, incremental additions of alternative energies would actually make some difference.

but, god forbid we stop sucking off them saudi jerks.

 

[Inkara1]

Well, even though we're mostly just using oil from this hemisphere, what happens in the middle east with oil does affect the price worldwide.

 

[jimpeel]

Let me ask you this; if we are so into liberating people from tyranny for altruistic reasons, why have we not invaded Uganda and straightened them out?

They have exactly NOTHING that we want or need. There was no altruism involved. Saddam was a threat to the entire region and could have had a devastating effect on our economy, national security, and our lifestyle.

Get used to it. Bush freed 27 million people while Obama has taken this country several steps in the opposite direction.

 

[jimpeel]

Jim wants to call killing 100s of thousands and displacing millions of Iraqis "liberating".

Since you chose to use the plural when you made up those numbers, that would mean a MINIMUM of 200,000 dead IRAQIS and a MINIMUM of 2 million displaced IRAQIS.

I'm sure you have a reliable source for those lies besides some anti-war/anti-Bush/anti-America website with some retarded name like pleasemommystopthewar.com?

 

[jimpeel]

Consider this "report" from NPR on the number of deaths of Iraqis since the beginning of the war.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14501232

Survey Puts Iraqi War Dead Above One Million

Day to Day, September 18, 2007 · The British polling agency ORB has released a new survey of Iraqis that suggests that more than one million Iraqis have been killed since the war began. One surprising finding from the study was that most of the estimated 1.2 million deaths were the result of a gun shot, not car bomb. Johnny Heald, co-author of the study, talks to Madeleine Brand about what these numbers mean.

Yes. What DO those numbers mean ...

The war started March 20, 2003 and this phony survey was reported on September 18, 2007.

From and including: Thursday, March 20, 2003
To and including: Tuesday, September 18, 2007

It is 1,644 days from the start date to the end date, end date included

Or 4 years, 5 months, 30 days including the end date

Let's do the math.

1,200,000 / 1,644 = 730 deaths every day, day after day nonstop and not skipping a single day.

730 / 24 = 30.5 deaths every hour, hour after hour nonstop and not skipping a single hour.

Get it? The numbers are inflated to sound bad; but the people spouting those numbers are the only one coming out sounding bad. All it takes is for those listening to them refuse to do the math and accept them without question -- kinda like you..

 

[jimpeel]

You have more people living in the USA today below the relative poverty line... a Trillion dollars would've gone pretty damn far at home too, eh.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html

Number of Americans living below the poverty line in 2003 = 35,861,000
Number of Americans living below the poverty line in 2004 = 37,040,000
Number of Americans living below the poverty line in 2005 = 36,950,000
Number of Americans living below the poverty line in 2006 = 36,460,000

Assuming the number stays stable for 2007, 2008, and 2009 ...

Number of Americans living below the poverty line in 2007 = 36,460,000
Number of Americans living below the poverty line in 2008 = 36,460,000
Number of Americans living below the poverty line in 2009 = 36,460,000

Average number of Americans living below the poverty line from 2003 until 2009 = 36,527,285

Number of days remaining of 2003 after March 20 through December 31 = 286
Number of days for 2004 = 366
Number of days for 2005 = 365
Number of days for 2006 = 365
Number of days for 2007 = 365
Number of days for 2008 = 366
Number of days elapsed in 2009 = 117

Number of days elapsed from the start of the war until today April 28, 2009 = 2,230

So let's do the math ...

$1,000,000,000,000 / 36,527,285 = $27,376.79 per person BUT ...

The war has dragged on for 2,230 days so if the amount is amortized over the same duration, and then converted to the per year amount, you get this ...

$27,376.79 / 2,230 = $12.28 per person per day

$12.38 per day * 365 = $4,482.20 per person per year;
$373.52 per person per month

Yeah, that's pretty damned far alright.

Next time, do the math before making broad statements like that.

 

[randomJACKASS]

The fact that you are ignoring Jim is that enough Islamic factions in Iraq oppose a US style democracy and are willing and equipped enough that it won't last a year after we are gone. What, are we supposed to stay forever? Perhaps make it the 51st state? The warfare is different because it's an entirely different geographical region, but it's Vietnam all over again except that Iraqi dissidents aren't getting so much support externally as the North Vietnamese. I'd just about bet money as soon as we let go, and we do have to, that the government of Iraq is tossed out in favor of an Islamic theocracy, in no more than a year or less. No matter what we do we will not force these people into our way of thinking. It is useless and futile to try. You can throw out all the numbers you want, but in the end those people will have whatever government the want and are willing to die for.

It is not the neat picture you Bush apologists wish to portray. I know, personally, people who have worked in Iraq, and everything I have seen and heard from the suggests it is not going to end peacefully, EVER!

If only we would use good old American ingenuity, and I am still convinced we have some of the best minds the world over, we could create renewable energy sources and greatly reduce, and eventually end our dependence on foreign oil. Hell I think it's in the oil companies best interests to get in on that. The trouble is that it would create jobs and create wealth and if the big oil folks were not in on it, it would ruin them. They have too much money and power and influence to let that happen yet. Pray God that changes or I guarantee you things will only get worse!

 

[MrBishop]

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html
$27,376.79 / 2,230 = $12.28 per person per day

$12.38 per day * 365 = $4,482.20 per person per year;
$373.52 per person per month

Yeah, that's pretty damned far alright.

Next time, do the math before making broad statements like that.

Only you would think that I'm actually talking about giving people below the property line a yearly cheque.

How about... taking that money and...er...building better schools, and teaching better teachers to keep kids in school. How about job training programs for the adults? Shelters? Food banks? Drug-rehab centres?

You spent $1T dollars.... roughly 30% in horribly expensive smart bombs to destroy dirt-cheap stupid buildings, 30% in salary and 30% rebuilding all the shit you blew up in the first place.

That's a lot of money for assassinating a dictator.

 

[spike]

Get it? The numbers are inflated to sound bad; but the people spouting those numbers are the only one coming out sounding bad. All it takes is for those listening to them refuse to do the math and accept them without question -- kinda like you..

Oh you want to bicker about numbers and think that's going to change something?

Jim, whatever source you use the number of dead and displaced Iraqis is massive. So you really have no point here.

The Iraq debacle was never about freedom for Iraqis, you know that. It was about the threat of WMDs and they were wrong as hell. It was one of the biggest blunders in recent history.

Like I said if it was about freedom we wouldn't have continously ignored the will of the Iraqi people for years now. Not too mention ignoring the will of the US troops and US citizens.

You've got nothing.