The ACLU in action...again

[SouthernN'Proud]

Those Dastardly Scouts



The Pentagon will soon start warning military bases worldwide that they should not directly sponsor Boy Scout troops because the group requires its members to believe in God, reports the Associated Press.

To settle a 1999 lawsuit from the ACLU, the Pentagon agreed to warn bases not to officially sponsor groups of boys who pledge to do their duty to God and their country, to help other people at all times and to stay physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

"If our Constitution's promise of religious liberty is to be a reality, the government should not be administering religious oaths or discriminating based on religious beliefs," said ACLU lawyer Adam Schwartz.

*from www.tonguetied.us story*


Thank goodness for the ACLU...always right there to save us from ourselves.

Words fail me when I try to articulate just how nauseating this is. Last time I checked, the Boy Scouts was a voluntary organization. If you don't want to be a scout, no one compels one to do so. If you don't like their standards, keep your kids out. For the rest, the ones who choose to be there, they are being robbed of not only potential financial support (also completely voluntary) but significant role models. I would imagine that a Boy Scout being able to mingle with a real soldier would be a significant experience.

I'm one more step closer now to building that hermit's cabin in the middle of the woods...

 

[PT]

I'm one more step closer now to building that hermit's cabin in the middle of the woods...

Fuck. Any chance we can make it a duplex?

 

[Gato_Solo]

Fuck. Any chance we can make it a duplex?

Might as well make it a cineplex, because when the ACLU finds out what we're doing, they'll have us tracked down, and forced to assimilate.

 

[Inkara1]

Might as well make it a cineplex

I was going to suggest a triplex... but hell, I wouldn't mind living in a cineplex. Think of all the popcorn! How many screens?

 

[chcr]

If our Constitution's promise of religious liberty is to be a reality, the government should not be administering religious oaths or discriminating based on religious beliefs

I find nothing in that statement to disagree with. A government entity (the military) should not directly sponsor any organizations which require religion. Individual members of the military are certainly free to support them in any way they choose.

Just as an aside, I was a Boy Scout and an atheist. Everyone knew it, no one cared. Welcome to the future. It's scarier than I imagined it would be. Remember when this used to be America?

 

[Gato_Solo]

I find nothing in that statement to disagree with. A government entity (the military) should not directly sponsor any organizations which require religion. Individual members of the military are certainly free to support them in any way they choose.

Just as an aside, I was a Boy Scout and an atheist. Everyone knew it, no one cared. Welcome to the future. It's scarier than I imagined it would be. Remember when this used to be America?

One thing to remember...it's not the government making the oath...and since you're on that soap-box, why not force the military to get rid of chaplains? Same with the legislative and executive branches of government?

 

[Inkara1]

Police chaplains, too. Of course, then who would the force send to people's houses to inform someone of a death?

 

[Gonz]

*gasp* I've come to understand the legislature opens each & every session with a prayer!!!!

 

[Gato_Solo]

Police chaplains, too. Of course, then who would the force send to people's houses to inform someone of a death?

Doesn't matter. The point is that nobody is forcing anybody to join the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, the Explorers, the 4 H, whatever. If you don't believe in the oath, then don't join, or form your own club. There are already too many idiots out there whining about this without the ACLU forcing the issue. Freedom of Religion means that you are allowed to follow any religion you desire, or not follow any religion at all. It doesn't mean that you can't support an organization that espouses religion...Now we come to another question...Most, if not all, of the DoD sponsored Scouting is outside the US. What are those children going to do now? I'm sure that the ACLU didn't think of that. Hell...they probably don't even care.

 

[chcr]

One thing to remember...it's not the government making the oath...and since you're on that soap-box, why not force the military to get rid of chaplains? Same with the legislative and executive branches of government?

Completely different thing Gato. The military and the branches of government do not require you to espouse a religion. The Boy Scouts do now. I know they say they always did, but no one ever made me say that part of the oath or held it against me that I didn't. I'm not on a soapbox, necessarily, I just agree with this one. A government organization should not subsidize the Boy Scouts in my opinion. Individual government employees, on the other hand, can do what they want to about it. Same thing with prayer in the legislature (or in school for that matter). As long as it's not required, I have no problem with it. I also agree that if you take the oath, you should agree with it.

Maybe we're only arguing semantics. I have no problem, for instance, with a military unit taking up a collection to pay for a camping trip for the Scouts. On duty personnel and military equipment being used to take them camping would be wrong.
I was proud to have been a Boy Scout, I learned a lot. It seems to me that in todays "United States of the Offended" the Scouts have lost sight of what their real mission is; to turn boys and girls into responsible, upstanding members of society. I am sad to know that the current leaders of Scouting think a profession of faith is more important than the things a person stands for.

 

[chcr]

1. Freedom of Religion means that you are allowed to follow any religion you desire, or not follow any religion at all. It doesn't mean that you can't support an organization that espouses religion...
2. Now we come to another question...Most, if not all, of the DoD sponsored Scouting is outside the US. What are those children going to do now?
3. I'm sure that the ACLU didn't think of that. Hell...they probably don't even care.

1. No but it does mean the government can't.

2. Take up a collection. If the various members of the DoD think it's such a good idea to support it (and I'm not saying it's not) they ought to be willing to support it privately.

3. I'll give you that one, The ACLU doesn't care about much besides getting in the media.

 

[Gato_Solo]

1. No but it does mean the government can't.

Better re-read the Constitution on that point, because the Boy Scouts, even though they have God in their oath, is not a religion, nor does it require that you belong to any specific religion...only that you believe in God.

2. Take up a collection. If the various members of the DoD think it's such a good idea to support it (and I'm not saying it's not) they ought to be willing to support it privately.

Tell that to the junior enlisted folks who have to use food stamps to make ends meet, and are the ones most likely to have their children in just such groups. Tell that to the parents who both have to work, and have no place for their child to go between the hours of 3:00 PM and 5:00 PM except the Youth center (which has to be paid because of Congress), or home alone.

3. I'll give you that one, The ACLU doesn't care about much besides getting in the media.

 

[chcr]

1. Better re-read the Constitution on that point, because the Boy Scouts, even though they have God in their oath, is not a religion, nor does it require that you belong to any specific religion...only that you believe in God.
2. Tell that to the junior enlisted folks who have to use food stamps to make ends meet, and are the ones most likely to have their children in just such groups. Tell that to the parents who both have to work, and have no place for their child to go between the hours of 3:00 PM and 5:00 PM except the Youth center (which has to be paid because of Congress), or home alone.

1. They require you to profess a faith. I understand that it isn't a specific faith, but if they require you to profess a belief in god, that is the same as requiring you to profess a faith. They are certainly well within their rights to do so but I still say the government (or their agencies) have no business supporting it unless it's available to everyone regardless of whether they choose to profess a faith or not.
2. You know as well as I that there are many Armed forces employees who can give time or money or both. Certainly some cannot, but a lot could. The separation of church and state is eroding frighteningly quickly. When it erodes far enough, you have Afghanistan under the Taliban.

 

[Gato_Solo]

1. They require you to profess a faith. I understand that it isn't a specific faith, but if they require you to profess a belief in god, that is the same as requiring you to profess a faith. They are certainly well within their rights to do so but I still say the government (or their agencies) have no business supporting it unless it's available to everyone regardless of whether they choose to profess a faith or not.

But not a specific faith. That's the issue. The government is not sponsoring a religion, or a religious group, and has been for quite some time (at least 50 years).

2. You know as well as I that there are many Armed forces employees who can give time or money or both. Certainly some cannot, but a lot could. The separation of church and state is eroding frighteningly quickly. When it erodes far enough, you have Afghanistan under the Taliban.

That wasn't the issue, and niether is the so-called 'seperation of church and state'. This was a coordinated, and base, attack on the institution of the Boy Scouts. The ACLU has been after the scouts since it lost it's case over the banning of gay scout leaders. It wasn't about church and state...it was about revenge.

 

[chcr]

I agree with the ACLU part (although I didn't think they should ban gay scout leaders either, but that's another argument). What I don't agree with (and your point is valid, I just disagree) is that it matters whether it's a specific faith or faith in general. When the Boy Scouts announced that their members must profess a belief in god, they became a religious organization. Secular organizations don't care whether you believe or not, do they? As I said before, when I was a scout (in the dim reaches of antiquity) everyone at least up to some of the state leaders knew I was an atheist, and they neither required me to profess a faith nor gave me any trouble about not doing it. We Americans have become so touchy about our prerogatives lately. I think it bodes ill for our society's future, but i don't know how to stop it.

 

[Gato_Solo]

I agree with the ACLU part (although I didn't think they should ban gay scout leaders either, but that's another argument). What I don't agree with (and your point is valid, I just disagree) is that it matters whether it's a specific faith or faith in general. When the Boy Scouts announced that their members must profess a belief in god, they became a religious organization. Secular organizations don't care whether you believe or not, do they? As I said before, when I was a scout (in the dim reaches of antiquity) everyone at least up to some of the state leaders knew I was an atheist, and they neither required me to profess a faith nor gave me any trouble about not doing it. We Americans have become so touchy about our prerogatives lately. I think it bodes ill for our society's future, but i don't know how to stop it.

So, then, what did the oath mean to you when you spoke it? My point exactly. The scouts never made you choose a religion...they didn't really care, and they still don't.

 

[chcr]

So, then, what did the oath mean to you when you spoke it? My point exactly. The scouts never made you choose a religion...they didn't really care, and they still don't.

Maybe I didn't make it clear. I did not, nor was I required to say anything about god. I was allowed to skip that part of the oath. People were more tolerant of differing ideas then than they are now. Now, they won't let you choose no religion and that is by default making you choose a religion to be a scout. That makes them, in my view, a religious organization. It's a small thing, but the big things are made up of lots of small things. Where do you draw the line? This is one of the places I do.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Maybe I didn't make it clear. I did not, nor was I required to say anything about god. I was allowed to skip that part of the oath. People were more tolerant of differing ideas then than they are now. Now, they won't let you choose no religion and that is by default making you choose a religion to be a scout. That makes them, in my view, a religious organization. It's a small thing, but the big things are made up of lots of small things. Where do you draw the line? This is one of the places I do.

Okay. I get the cut of your jib now. However...it doesn't mention which religion you must belong to in there...Must've missed that part...

added during the edit...

The Boy Scouts of America has always been committed to the moral, ethical, and spiritual development of our youth. Scouting is not a religion, but duty to God is a basic tenet of the Scout Oath and Law.

Scouting does not seek to impose its beliefs upon others who do not share them. Virtually every religion is represented in Scouting, and the BSA does not define or interpret God. That is the role of the Scout's family and religious advisors.

Scouting respects those who do not share its beliefs and it would not ask others to alter their faith in any fashion in order to become Scouts. They too are free to follow their own beliefs. Rather, the BSA membership believes that the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law are central to the BSA goal of teaching the values of self-reliance, courage, integrity, and consideration to others. Scouting may not be for everyone, but for eight decades, Scouting has provided meaningful programs and adventure to more than eighty million young people in the United States.

From the scouts own website...

 

[chcr]

Okay. I get the cut of your jib now. However...it doesn't mention which religion you must belong to in there...Must've missed that part...

Doesn't matter which one. That's the point. It's the fact that they require you to pick one at all (or that they refuse to let you choose "none"). They let Muslim scouts substitute the word allah for the word god, you know.

Understand that the scouts as a private organization are perfectly free to require you to profess a belief in god. I don't agree with it but there isn't anything wrong about it. They are then, however, prohibited from seeking any form of government subsidy.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

They are then, however, prohibited from seeking any form of government subsidy.

Seeking, OK I agree. But accepting if offered by a Marine infantry troop? I think that's pushing the definition of "government agency" a bit thinly.