The ACLU in action...again

chcr said:
Doesn't matter which one. That's the point. It's the fact that they require you to pick one at all (or that they refuse to let you choose "none"). They let Muslim scouts substitute the word allah for the word god, you know.

Understand that the scouts as a private organization are perfectly free to require you to profess a belief in god. I don't agree with it but there isn't anything wrong about it. They are then, however, prohibited from seeking any form of government subsidy.
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
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...Source...

Funny how those words, in bold, can cause so many problems, innit?

1. How is supporting scouting establishing a religion?

2. How is supporting scouting prohibiting the free exercise of religion?

Not stirring up any crap, just looking for how you get your answer to all of this...
 
I still don't get it. There is no inference to seperation of church & state.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
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The bold part tends to be forgotten.
 
The spirit rather than the letter of the law. The government should simply not subsidize (IMO) any organization that requires one to profess a religious faith, regardless of whether it's a specific faith or just faith in general. That is the meaning of separation of church and state. I can't make it any clearer than that. It sets a dangerous precedent, and they should always err on the side of caution in such decisions. This particular one is easy, IMO.
 
I'll agree...to a point. The gov't has no business supporting a church. That support can be passed to religious backed projects...ie Boy Scouts...without establishing religion.
 
If the religious backed organization does not require you to profess a faith to partake of their services, then I agree. Scouting unfortunately does.
 
Since I disliked scouting I won't disagree. How about Catholic Charities. They need a meeting place since theirs burned down. How about the Town Hall?
 
chcr said:
If the religious backed organization does not require you to profess a faith to partake of their services, then I agree. Scouting unfortunately does.
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I've showed you, from their own website, that scouting doesn't require any particular religion. How can you turn around and say that it does? The mind doth boggle...
 
I guess you didn't know they don't require you to be catholic (or anything else) to volunteer (and certainly not to donate). They prefer it, but it isn't required.

Heck, I don't even care if they put up the ten commandments in city hall, no one makes you look at them. That's just another case of someone looking for something to be offended by. "The United States of the Offended," I'm telling you...
 
chcr said:
I guess you didn't know they don't require you to be catholic (or anything else) to volunteer (and certainly not to donate). They prefer it, but it isn't required.

Heck, I don't even care if they put up the ten commandments in city hall, no one makes you look at them. That's just another case of someone looking for something to be offended by. "The United States of the Offended," I'm telling you...
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Ahhh...devils advocate? Smooooooth, chcr. :lloyd:
 
Gato_Solo said:
I've showed you, from their own website, that scouting doesn't require any particular religion. How can you turn around and say that it does? The mind doth boggle...
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Again, it simply does not matter whether it's a particular religion or not. If the choice "none" is not one of the choices available, then they require you to have a religion, don't they? I don't know how I can make it more plain. All religions are wrong as far as I'm concerned. If you require me to espouse one or another, then I will not be part of your club. There is nothing at all wrong with this unless your club is subsidized by the government. At that point regardless of whether it's a particular religion or just "pick one" they have violated the separation of church and state. The "church" in "church and state" applies equally to all churches, not any particular one or to any organization that requires a religious belief or declaration. That's the way I see it. By requiring a profession of a religious belief, particular or not, you become a religious organization. I thought I'd made that clear. :shrug:
 
chcr said:
Again, it simply does not matter whether it's a particular religion or not. If the choice "none" is not one of the choices available, then they require you to have a religion, don't they? I don't know how I can make it more plain. All religions are wrong as far as I'm concerned. If you require me to espouse one or another, then I will not be part of your club. There is nothing at all wrong with this unless your club is subsidized by the government. At that point regardless of whether it's a particular religion or just "pick one" they have violated the separation of church and state. The "church" in "church and state" applies equally to all churches, not any particular one or to any organization that requires a religious belief or declaration. That's the way I see it. By requiring a profession of a religious belief, particular or not, you become a religious organization. I thought I'd made that clear. :shrug:
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Okay...this is where we have our bone of contention. The Boy Scouts does not require you to belong to a church, and it does not require you to belong to any particular religion. All it requires is a belief in God...and they don't even bother to check if you actually believe, or not. You say you spent time in the scouts...were you damaged, emotionally or psychologically from your experiences? Perhaps you just don't like the idea of a bunch of young men staying out of trouble on week-ends...I don't know what's going through your mind, but denying sponsorship, when most of the scouts come from the military bases that support them, is a ridiculous way of thinking. It's like the ACLU is against anything that even appears to be a positive influence. I'll say this once more...and as clear as I can...

1. The Boy Scouts is not choosing your religion. All they ask for is a belief in a higher power. If that's so offensive to you, then TFB. Get over it.
2. The money spent on 'sponsoring' the scouting programs is not a violation of church and state because it does not establish a religion, nor does it prohibit the free exercise thereof. If you can't see that, then you are hopelessly blind.
 
The Boy Scouts does not require you to belong to a church, and it does not require you to belong to any particular religion. All it requires is a belief in God
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Not a particular religion but a religion none the less. Basically the same thing as far as I'm concerned. They require a belief.
and they don't even bother to check if you actually believe, or not.
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Doesn't that seem too important to lie about to you? I assure you it does to me.

The Boy Scouts is not choosing your religion. All they ask for is a belief in a higher power. If that's so offensive to you, then TFB. Get over it.
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I'm not offended, Gato. It's their business. I just don't think they should in any way be subsidized by the US government.

I loved scouts and scouting. I just think the current leaders are misguided. Excluding young people who don't have a religious belief is wrong. No one ever discussed religion at a scout meeting in the whole time I was a scout (11 years counting cubs). As I assume no one does now. Here's a question; What if someone wants to say "goddess" instead of "god?"
 
chcr said:
Not a particular religion but a religion none the less. Basically the same thing as far as I'm concerned. They require a belief.
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Once again, the one thing that I disagree with. Believing in God does not mean having a religion any more than having a water-bowl means you own a cat. You have wrapped the two up into the same package, and that's wrong. ;)

chcr said:
I'm not offended, Gato. It's their business. I just don't think they should in any way be subsidized by the US government.
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Once again we look at the constitution...Do the Boy Scouts constitute a religion?

Does refusal to let someone participate in the Boy Scouts prohibit the free exercise of religion?

chcr said:
I loved scouts and scouting. I just think the current leaders are misguided. Excluding young people who don't have a religious belief is wrong. No one ever discussed religion at a scout meeting in the whole time I was a scout (11 years counting cubs). As I assume no one does now.
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The only thing I learned in Scouts was how to light farts... :shrug:

chcr said:
Here's a question; What if someone wants to say "goddess" instead of "god?"
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Who cares?
 
Makes me wonder when the ACLU will go against the Salvation Army, B'nai Brith or Alcoholics Annonymous...aren't those espousing religion and considered charities? Charities are supported by the GVT by excluding them from many taxation laws. Hell...when you reall ythink about it...all churches get charitable fringe benefits.

:shrug:
 
The only thing I learned in Scouts was how to light farts...
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Oh heck, that was just one of the many useful things I learned in Scouts. Some of them even respectable. :lol: We used to score 'em for volume, duration, length of flame and "what the heck did you EAT" factor.

Once again, the one thing that I disagree with. Believing in God does not mean having a religion any more than having a water-bowl means you own a cat. You have wrapped the two up into the same package, and that's wrong.
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To an atheist (well at least to this one) any belief in god or any other supernatural "power" constitutes a religion. I think we'll have to continue to disagree on this one.
 
"Non-binding resolution" means "let's make it look like we're concerned for our contituency among the religious right without actually doing anything at all."
 
chcr said:
"Non-binding resolution" means "let's make it look like we're concerned for our contituency among the religious right without actually doing anything at all."
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True, but it also sends a warning to judges not to be so quick on this...

I say this...prohibiting Boy Scouts is interfering with my children's right to the free exercise of religion. By banning sponsorship of Boy Scouts on military bases, my children are now faced with travelling great distances, often through dangerous territory, to meet with their respective scouting groups. :D
 
The religious citizens of the USA (about 95%), not the zealots mind you, are finally standing up & saying seperating God from politics is fine; seperating God from America isn't. The atheists & anti-religionists have taken their cases so far as to make them look every bit as foolish as the zealots.

I'll place a large wager that if all the anti-religion hoopla were to die down, the average American would go back into their cave & attempt to ignore all the yelling....again.
 
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