The difference

[SouthernN'Proud]

This is civilized?

OK. I have done my dead level best to keep my mind as open as possible about this entire ordeal. I really have. All kidding aside, I have tried to give every allowance, every consideration, make every cultural concession, that I could justify, think of, or create.

They ain't working.

I have come to the regretful conclusion that we are not talking about civilized human beings here. Their very dogma contradicts their dogma. Their reactions are beyond inhuman. Their reasoning is baffling to any conceivable concoction of logic. How can I be expected to "respect their rights and freedoms" when this is their tactic?

I am not calling for genocide. I am calling for common sense to be brought into play. If you want me to listen to your point of view, stop blowing shit up just because someone else disagrees with said point of view. Then maybe your argument will hold water. Not until.

Discuss if you like.

 

[chcr]

I've said it before, but if you were born and raised there that behavior would seem perfectly acceptable to you. I was born and raised here though, so it seems totally fucked up to me too. The only solution I can see that has a chance of working is to step on their throats hard until they capitulate. Demonstrating that there's a better way is clearly not working. Maybe 500 years from now they'd thank us, but I doubt it. Of course, we won't do it. Wouldn't be civilized.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

I've said it before, but if you were born and raised there that behavior would seem perfectly acceptable to you.

I've made that allowance. It still defies logic. It's like looting...how is destroying your own infrastructure supposed to help your cause?

 

[unclehobart]

It doesn't. All you have to do it think back to Compton and other mass riots around the globe over the year. Its a neat little mass psychology trick called 'diffusion of responsibility'. A collective loses the decorum and responsibility of an individual and becomes a raving opportunistic childish blob rife with primal proto-monkeyman behavior... theft, rape, violence, arson.

 

[Winky]

Q:This is civilized?

A:No they ain't.

 

[catocom]

I've made that allowance. It still defies logic. It's like looting...how is destroying your own infrastructure supposed to help your cause?

You can't make enough "allowance".
I've tried, and even talking one on one with one of them. You simply cannot
wrap your mind around their concepts.

I can't even get my mind to comprehend Flavs concepts. I believe he believes
what he's saying though.

 

[Winky]

I believe he believes
what he's saying...

and thats the scary part

 

[chcr]

You can't make enough "allowance".
I've tried, and even talking one on one with one of them. You simply cannot
wrap your mind around their concepts.

They're all conditioned responses, cat. I've read several studies on the subject. If you were raised in their culture, then their culture would seem normal to you. Note that I don't participate in their culture, but you simply cannot expect to teach them the "proper" way to live and expect them to accept it any more than you would if they were teaching you what they think is "proper." It's the same mistake pretty much everyone makes. Our way is right, proper, natural, ordained by god, etc. I promise you that most (if not all) of them feel the same way. Are you willing to change what you believe is "right?" I didn't think so. Neither am I. The only two choices that have a chance to work are the aforementioned throat stomping force or genocide. I don't think the west has the stomach for either (I don't think I do) but I seriously believe that these are the only short term, workable solutions.

So, in other words, you can expect things to remain more or less the same for the foreseeable future.

 

[Winky]

Cheeky is wrong as usual...

Yeah but he can't hep himself cuz his werld view IS
one in which there isn't any right or wrong

yah just make it up as you go along...

Cat olde boi,
duh way they live is wrong and ours is Right and it's that simple.

 

[chcr]

Cheeky is wrong as usual...

Yeah but he can't hep himself cuz his werld view IS
one in which there isn't any right or wrong

yah just make it up as you go along...

Cat olde boi,
duh way they live is wrong and ours is Right and it's that simple.

Wrong again Wink. I probably pretty much agree with you about what's right and what's wrong, but I was raised in the same society you were. The difference is that I recognize that there are other beliefs out there that other people believe just as strongly as I believe mine. Whether or not I think they're wrong (and for the record I do), my expecting them to change just because I tell them to is just as stupid as them expecting me to do the same.

Once again, we come back to two workable solutions. Do you have another?

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

They're all conditioned responses, cat. I've read several studies on the subject. If you were raised in their culture, then their culture would seem normal to you. Note that I don't participate in their culture, but you simply cannot expect to teach them the "proper" way to live and expect them to accept it any more than you would if they were teaching you what they think is "proper." It's the same mistake pretty much everyone makes. Our way is right, proper, natural, ordained by god, etc. I promise you that most (if not all) of them feel the same way. Are you willing to change what you believe is "right?" I didn't think so. Neither am I. The only two choices that have a chance to work are the aforementioned throat stomping force or genocide. I don't think the west has the stomach for either (I don't think I do) but I seriously believe that these are the only short term, workable solutions.

So, in other words, you can expect things to remain more or less the same for the foreseeable future.

OK. All very reasonable and all quite sound logically.

Then this begs the next question.

Do these concepts apply equally across all cultures? And if so, when/where is the justification for any declaration of war, economic/diplomatic sanctions, or other adverse reasction between differing parties?

Just call me devil's advocate/shit stirrer of the day I reckon...

 

[flavio]

You can't make enough "allowance".
I've tried, and even talking one on one with one of them. You simply cannot
wrap your mind around their concepts.

I can't even get my mind to comprehend Flavs concepts. I believe he believes
what he's saying though.

You're never going to wrap your mind around most concepts when you shut your brain down as soon as something doesn't fit your preconceived ideas. It'd really boggle your mind if you could step outside your space and watch people bounce important information off them while saying things something like "leaking classified national intelligence information is really a non-issue. The laws against it are trivial and not worth enforcing".

For example watch what happens when I bring this up.....

Anyone notice in the beginning of the article it says:

The
European Union condemned both the cartoons, first printed in a Danish newspaper in September, and what it called "systematic incitement to violence" against European diplomatic missions by some unidentified governments.

Anyone heard anything about this? What unidentified governments would have the motive?

 

[Winky]

Ok Cheeky,

We are in agreement!

(OMG-hope that doesn’t occur to frequently)

Do these concepts apply equally across all cultures?

Yes

And if so, when/where is the justification for any declaration of war, economic/diplomatic sanctions, or other adverse reasction between differing parties?

Yes

 

[Gonz]

One problem with the "it's normal in their culture" argument. They know damned good & well that burning & looting is wrong. Don't think they do? Why don't they do it to every day? Why don't they attack THIER offices? Why are they burning Dutch, English & American flags instead of UN flags?

They know it's wrong & it doesn't matter. They didn't destroy the Egyptian embassy even though they ran the cartoons before the Dutch did.

 

[catocom]

They're all conditioned responses, cat. I've read several studies on the subject. If you were raised in their culture, then their culture would seem normal to you. Note that I don't participate in their culture, but you simply cannot expect to teach them the "proper" way to live and expect them to accept it any more than you would if they were teaching you what they think is "proper." It's the same mistake pretty much everyone makes. Our way is right, proper, natural, ordained by god, etc. I promise you that most (if not all) of them feel the same way. Are you willing to change what you believe is "right?" I didn't think so. Neither am I. The only two choices that have a chance to work are the aforementioned throat stomping force or genocide. I don't think the west has the stomach for either (I don't think I do) but I seriously believe that these are the only short term, workable solutions.

So, in other words, you can expect things to remain more or less the same for the foreseeable future.

I agree. I don't think that coflicts with my statements.

You're never going to wrap your mind around most concepts when you shut your brain down as soon as something doesn't fit your preconceived ideas. It'd really boggle your mind if you could step outside your space and watch people bounce important information off them while saying things something like "leaking classified national intelligence information is really a non-issue. The laws against it are trivial and not worth enforcing".

For example watch what happens when I bring this up.....

Anyone notice in the beginning of the article it says:

Anyone heard anything about this? What unidentified governments would have the motive?

I don't "shut your brain down as soon as something doesn't fit your preconceived ideas".
It may seem that way to you, but it doesn't make it true.
It seems you also, cannot wrap your mind around that way some here think. I'm I wrong there?

 

[chcr]

One problem with the "it's normal in their culture" argument. They know damned good & well that burning & looting is wrong. Don't think they do? Why don't they do it to every day? Why don't they attack THIER offices? Why are they burning Dutch, English & American flags instead of UN flags?

They know it's wrong & it doesn't matter. They didn't destroy the Egyptian embassy even though they ran the cartoons before the Dutch did.

You're confusing "normal" with "acceptable." Of course they don't blow up their own buildings, they're insane, not stupid.

You're right about the Egyptians though. I'm sure if you'd simply point that out to them they'd stop immediately.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

You're never going to wrap your mind around most concepts when you shut your brain down as soon as something doesn't fit your preconceived ideas.

But isn't that exactly what these folks are doing by rioting over a cartoon? If the argument flows one way, it must work the other in return to be a valid argument.

 

[flavio]

But isn't that exactly what these folks are doing by rioting over a cartoon? If the argument flows one way, it must work the other in return to be a valid argument.

Maybe, or it could be two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Winky]

Maybe one Right makes a right?

 

[flavio]

It seems you also, cannot wrap your mind around that way some here think. I'm I wrong there?

That's true for sure. I see Winky's posts and think "what the hell is wrong with that guy?". One thing I can say about him though is he's not afraid to say what he thinks about something.

Like in this thread "Rove blackmails Senate over illegal wiretapping". Rove blackmailing the Senate is kinda a big deal right? That shouldn't be considered legal, moral, or ok at all. It's a blatant corruption of the American sytem and the ideals it was founded on. Winky not afraid at to come right out and approve of it though while everybody else does this...

I also can't get my head around everybody in this thread is making these broad statements about they, them, his, and these folks but not once has anybody said who they are. Weird eh?

We're talking about the rioters right? People are making all these generalizations about "culture" though and rioters don't have a culture...so they must be referring to muslims right?

So based on the actions of the rioters they're making statements about all muslims. That would mean all muslims must be rioters. However all 1 billion+ muslims didn't riot (that would suck huh?) so there must be a difference between the rioters and the muslims that didn't riot.

They didn't destroy the Egyptian embassy even though they ran the cartoons before the Dutch did.

I think there's more to that statement than you realize.