The end game

Certainly with you on that last point. :D

The problem isn't with believing the articles. It's with articles claiming to have discovered something that they couldn't possibly know.
 
Are you saying that nobody had any idea how much rape or drug use there was in Iraq before the US invaded? Why wouldn't the Iraqis know these things? Nobody makes a big fuss over electricity level reports compared to prewar Iraq, how could we possibly know how much electricity was available before the US invasion? It's impossible right?

Asking how much elctricity there was before the US invaded is like asking if there is more life under the ice surface of Europa than there was 1,000 years ago right?

The reports indicate that the lawlessness that prevails in Iraq at this point (that we've all heard about) that things like rape and drug use are up. It's not even so hard to believe is it? One kinda almost just follows the other.....less police control -> more crime.

Granted there's not exact numbers on the situation, but the data available is hardly meaningless.

Since the end of the war and the outbreak of anarchy on the capital's streets, women here have grown increasingly afraid of being abducted and raped.

The breakdown of the Iraqi government after the war makes any crime hard to quantify. But the incidence of rape and abduction in particular seems to have increased, according to discussions with physicians, law-enforcement officials and families involved.

"We used to patrol all the time before the war," said a senior officer at the Aadimiya precinct house. "Now, nothing, and the criminals realize there is no security on the streets."

Younis said she has seen more rape cases in the months after the war than before.

The UN officials have also expressed alarm at a reported rise in rape.

UN officials have raised the issue with American and British forces.
They also say Iraqi women can no longer drive or walk in the streets at night as freely as they did in pre-war Iraq. And women have been victims not only of intimidation, but also of the lawlessness of the last few weeks, says the BBC's Caroline Hawley. No statistics are available, but Iraqis say there has been a significant increase in rape.

Drug taking was not a major social problem under Saddam's iron rule, but now it is becoming a growing concern.
Some of the drugs were looted from hospitals and found their way onto the streets. Others have come from outside the country, and are more readily available after the collapse of law and order.

A children's drug addiction centre in a poor Baghdad neighbourhood is deserted, after both staff and inmates scattered in the days after Baghdad fell.
Eman al-Jabouri, a paediatrician at Saddam Children's Hospital, said drug addiction had not been a very big problem before the war, when Iraq was under firm control. "But it is a problem now," she said. "After the looting, many of the medicines that included drugs fell into the hands of children last month."

"Rape is now beginning to be a big problem. Because of anarchy, women are abducted from the streets and even from their homes and raped," Jabouri said.
Click to expand...
 
to return to gonz's earlier assertion that al qaeda is in decline the foreign affairs select commitee of mp's in the uk today announced that the iraq war is likely to have been a boost to terrorist groups and the threat of al qaeda cannot been seen to be diminished.

they also identified that the breakdown of law and order in a post-conflict iraq was highly probable and the failure to ensure proper security deeply regrettable.

bbc more

and the situation in afghanistan is one that appears to be increasingly unstable
More than 18 months after the collapse of the Taliban regime, there is a remarkable consensus among aid workers, NGOs and UN officials that the situation is deteriorating.
Click to expand...

guardian comment
 
flavio said:
Are you saying that nobody had any idea how much rape or drug use there was in Iraq before the US invaded? Why wouldn't the Iraqis know these things? Nobody makes a big fuss over electricity level reports compared to prewar Iraq, how could we possibly know how much electricity was available before the US invasion? It's impossible right?
Click to expand...

No, it's not impossible, and there's no argument that it's more than likely the case. Just that saying it doesn't do a lot for the credibility of those newspapers, although that won't bother some people.

As far as electricity goes, pre-war electricity levels were not anything trying to be covered up so reports have every possibility of having an accurate picture of what it was like before, hence comparisons are valid. Which is why nobody "is making a big fuss"...

Coming back to this rape thing... maybe this "increased danger of rape" has got something to do with all these men with stars & stripes on their arms that have appeared recently... :usa:
 
The electrictiy levels could be judged from the outside. What we do know is, since the Husseins lived in Baghdad, it had 100% power all the time. It was the outlying areas that had intermitent power supplies. They are all level now, which is causing brown & black outs.

Why isn't the UN fixing Afghanistan? They are the wonderkind aren't they?
 
i think they are short of troops on the ground, most of the us forces are still holed up in the south fighting the taleban or specifically centred in kabul and it the rest of the uk/us army is busy elsewhere [ie iraq]. i can't say i'm wowed that uk/us forces and politicians appear content to leave afghanistan now their attention is turned elsewhere - they pretty much appointed the interim government and now that somehting else is more important its someone elses problem.
 
a13antichrist said:
As far as electricity goes, pre-war electricity levels were not anything trying to be covered up so reports have every possibility of having an accurate picture of what it was like before, hence comparisons are valid. Which is why nobody "is making a big fuss"...
these men with stars & stripes on their arms that have appeared recently... :usa:
Click to expand...

So why would you think pre-war rape levels are something that they would cover up now as opposed to post-war rape levels? It seems reports have a good possibility of portraying what it was like before as well as what it's like after.

As far as those ment with the stars and stripes, I have seen unsubstantiated accusations of rape leveled at the soldiers.
 
Gonz said:
The electrictiy levels could be judged from the outside. What we do know is, since the Husseins lived in Baghdad, it had 100% power all the time. It was the outlying areas that had intermitent power supplies. They are all level now, which is causing brown & black outs.

Why isn't the UN fixing Afghanistan? They are the wonderkind aren't they?
Click to expand...


probably cause thats in the past and they want the present? that or theyre screwing with us
 
flavio said:
So why would you think pre-war rape levels are something that they would cover up now as opposed to post-war rape levels? It seems reports have a good possibility of portraying what it was like before as well as what it's like after.

As far as those ment with the stars and stripes, I have seen unsubstantiated accusations of rape leveled at the soldiers.
Click to expand...

Pre-war, Saddam was in control and no-one had a chance of knowing the real story. He's not there to cover it up know, is he.. and if you're asking the people, you have to factor in the fact that people would never have talked before about it, whereas now they will. There's probably no doubt whatsoever that women FEEL more vunerable, FEEL more likely to be raped, but that in no way is any suggestion that it's actually happening more often. It most likely IS, because men are retards and sexually repressed men are worse, and sexually repressed men without legal control are unimaginable. But there's no way anyone reporting this stuff can possibly gauge it.

When you said "unsubstantiated", did you mean unfounded or imaginary? because they're not the same thing...
 
"unsubstantiated" was exactly the word I wanted to use. Why would you take issue with that word? I know what it means.

On the other topic, Saddam wasn't the sole owner of all rape information in the whole country. People may not have wanted to talk about it before, but if they're talking about it now they can certainly talk about how it is now compared to how it was then right?

Many of the hospital workers and such word have been there both before and after Saddam and would likeley have some good information on the subject.
 
flavio said:
"unsubstantiated" was exactly the word I wanted to use. Why would you take issue with that word? I know what it means.
Click to expand...

It can mean either "not true" or "not able to be proved". Which is why I asked you to clarify it.

flavio said:
People may not have wanted to talk about it before, but if they're talking about it now they can certainly talk about how it is now compared to how it was then right?
Click to expand...

Which is why the important point was that people are saying they feel more IN DANGER, and not that they have actually been raped more often.
Same goes for the hospital workers - and are they even mentioned in the claim?
 
flavio said:
the incidence of rape and abduction in particular seems to have increased, according to discussions with physicians, law-enforcement officials and families involved
Click to expand...

OK, missed this the first time round, guess that's good enough for me. So it may be that rape is on the rise.. as I said though, that will hardly come as a surpriise..
 
Have to agree that I find the Iraq story difficult to believe.. if only because of the claim that one of the girls "conveniently" died and the other was "conveniently" killed by her family..
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top