The Establishment

Minks?

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BeardofPants said:
Um? ... What is to believe, exactly?
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Neanderthal man are just people who suffered bone disease.

Dr. A.J.E. Cave said during the International Congress of Zoology, his examination of the famous Neanderthal man discovered in Germany was just an old man who suffered from arthritis.
 
i didn't realize that arthritis caused fairly dramatic changes in cranial morphology. fuck you, occipital bun!

i also didn't realize that there was only one specimen.

pardon me while i go laugh my ass off.
 
Gotholic said:
Neanderthal man are just people who suffered bone disease.

Dr. A.J.E. Cave said during the International Congress of Zoology, his examination of the famous Neanderthal man discovered in Germany was just an old man who suffered from arthritis.
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Cave only disputed Neanderthals presented stance as 'hunched over' by saying that the reconstructed skeleton did not allow for the presence of arthritis and the curvature of the spine due to age.

Basically, he wanted the skeleton to hunch less and have better poise. He at no time denied the differentiation of homo sapiens and homo neandertalis.
 
2minkey said:
i didn't realize that arthritis caused fairly dramatic changes in cranial morphology. fuck you, occipital bun!

i also didn't realize that there was only one specimen.

pardon me while i go laugh my ass off.
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Sever arthritis can affect the vertebrae and bend the posture. Neanderthal man's prominent eyebrow ridges are just like modern Australian Aborigines.

Neanderthal man had a poor diet and lack of sunlight which contributed to bone diseases such as rickets.

They are just a variation of humans.
 
MrBishop said:
Cave only disputed Neanderthals presented stance as 'hunched over' by saying that the reconstructed skeleton did not allow for the presence of arthritis and the curvature of the spine due to age.

Basically, he wanted the skeleton to hunch less and have better poise. He at no time denied the differentiation of homo sapiens and homo neandertalis.
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I think it was implied.

Another long-established notion got its comeuppance at the same congress. Dr. A. J. E. Cave of London's St. Bartholomew's Hospital told the zoologists that the stooping, bent-kneed, apelike stance of Neanderthal man was a libelous misconstruction. About 1911, said Dr. Cave, French Paleontologist Pierre Marcelin Boule fitted together a Neanderthal skeleton found in France. He did not allow for the fact that the bones belonged to an old Neanderthaler who suffered from arthritis. Recently Dr. Cave himself examined those same bones. With age and arthritis properly allowed for, the Neanderthaler looked better. His face may have been brutish, and his body a trifle too hairy for modern tastes, but he probably walked like modern men and stood as straight.
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Source
 
Gotho - how does arthritis do against these?
Cranial
  • Suprainiac fossa, a groove above the inion
  • Occipital bun, a protuberance of the occipital bone, which looks like a hair knot[6]
  • Projecting mid-face
  • Low, flat, elongated skull
  • A flat basicranium[7][8][9]
  • Supraorbital torus, a prominent, trabecular (spongy) brow ridge
  • 1,200–1,900 cm3 (73–116 cu in) skull capacity
  • Lack of a protruding chin (mental protuberance; although later specimens possess a slight protuberance)
  • Crest on the mastoid process behind the ear opening
  • No groove on canine teeth
  • A retromolar space posterior to the third molar
  • Bony projections on the sides of the nasal opening, projecting nose
  • Distinctive shape of the bony labyrinth in the ear
  • Larger mental foramen in mandible for facial blood supply
Sub-cranial
  • Considerably more robust, stronger build
  • Long collar bones, wider shoulders
  • Barrel-shaped rib cage
  • Short, bowed shoulder blades
  • Larger round finger tips
  • Large kneecaps
  • Thick, bowed shaft of the thigh bones, bowed femur
  • Short shinbones and calf bones, longer torso proportionally shorter legs
  • Long, gracile pelvic pubis (superior pubic ramus)
 
MrBishop said:
Gotho - how does arthritis do against these?
Cranial
  • Suprainiac fossa, a groove above the inion
  • Occipital bun, a protuberance of the occipital bone, which looks like a hair knot[6]
  • Projecting mid-face
  • Low, flat, elongated skull
  • A flat basicranium[7][8][9]
  • Supraorbital torus, a prominent, trabecular (spongy) brow ridge
  • 1,200–1,900 cm3 (73–116 cu in) skull capacity
  • Lack of a protruding chin (mental protuberance; although later specimens possess a slight protuberance)
  • Crest on the mastoid process behind the ear opening
  • No groove on canine teeth
  • A retromolar space posterior to the third molar
  • Bony projections on the sides of the nasal opening, projecting nose
  • Distinctive shape of the bony labyrinth in the ear
  • Larger mental foramen in mandible for facial blood supply
Sub-cranial
  • Considerably more robust, stronger build
  • Long collar bones, wider shoulders
  • Barrel-shaped rib cage
  • Short, bowed shoulder blades
  • Larger round finger tips
  • Large kneecaps
  • Thick, bowed shaft of the thigh bones, bowed femur
  • Short shinbones and calf bones, longer torso proportionally shorter legs
  • Long, gracile pelvic pubis (superior pubic ramus)
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I did not say arthritis caused all those things. However...

The evolutionary assumptions concerning Neandertal Man began early this century. The first Neandertal was reconstructed as a ‘missing link’ by famous paleontologist Marcellin Boule (1861–1942).3 He was called Homo neanderthalensis, implying a primitive evolutionary link to modern man, Homo sapiens. Forty-four years later, a reanalysis of Boule’s work showed his extreme evolutionary bias in the reconstruction of Neandertal Man. After the reanalysis, some scientists stated that if you dressed him up, gave him a shave and bath, and sent him into society, he would attract no more attention than some of the subway’s other denizens (see box below). Neandertal Man was then reclassified as Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, just a particular type of modern man.
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Source
 
so, um, what was your point gotholic?

it's widely accepted that neandertals were an adaptive variation on the modern human.

missing link? no, no one has believed that for years.

ya know if you had provided some more context for what you were saying, this would have been much easier.
 
2minkey said:
so, um, what was your point gotholic?

it's widely accepted that neandertals were an adaptive variation on the modern human.
missing link? no, no one has believed that for years.

ya know if you had provided some more context for what you were saying, this would have been much easier.
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it's also widely accepted that they weren't
 
Would these be the same scientists who think global warming is man-made & faked e-mails to prove it or those who thought alcohol/coffee/milk causes cancer?
 
catocom said:
Castle you know, and now on fox the others are coming out...

Carl Rove
Dana Perino
Stephen Hayes (and probably most of um at the Weekly Standard)

People that say O'Donnell can't win make me mad.
That's the oldest trick in the book by both major parties, and it's starting
to show the divide on both sides.
The so-called Reps that are bad-mouthing O'Donnell, are just making themselves look bad,
and those people in the media doing it, need to now be prepared to lose
support.
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catocom said:
well Fred Barnes seems to be warming up to the idea that O'Donnell might win.

Charles Krauthammer is still skeptical though, and doesn't seem too happy.
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now it looks lie Castle, Perino, and Hayes are at least trying to get on board.
You can tell they don't have much faith though....yet.
 
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