The 'New Anti-Semitism'

[ris]

very comforting indeed, glad to know that the israeli government treat the palestinian lives with as little respect as the terrorists show israeli lives. as long as that sort of mutual disrespect goes on there can never be a lasting peace.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

Actually that was another lie. But the fact is that type of action was from Israeli leaders being baffled as to how to deal with the Palestinians will, to kill their own families just to murder one Israeli. Thankfully, the Israelis are responding to their own mistakes, which is a hell of a lot more then i can say for the Palestinians. And the Palestinians will continue to pay the price for their murderous actions. The more they kill the more they will suffer regardless of what the world thinks. That is a fact!

 

[ris]

twice posts i've made have been called bullshit and lies now. i see no reason to continue a discussion where opinion is clearly not wanting to be discussed and instead would rather be returned with derogatory comment.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

That's fine. But if i see bullshit, i going to call it. And if i see lies or exaggeration then i'll expose it. I'm sure i take just as much offense to your comments as you do to mine. But because i care about the situation, i'm not going to back down simply because i'm offended. Peoples live are at stake. Both Palestinian and Israeli. If the Palestinians current actions continue to be justified by people around the world then they will continue to suffer. Who wants that? I certainly don't. This will not be solved by accepting suicide bombers as a just militia.

 

[Gonz]

This has gone on before. Let me be frank. There is not now, nor has there evera been a state of Palestine. It's pure fabrication. When offered, in 1947 or so, they refused. Fuck Arafat & fuck Hamas.

 

[AlladinSane]

So does Saddam, if everyone is doing it, why can't Israel?

So if Saddam are going to be condemned, will it be Israel too?

 

[Jeslek]

So does Saddam, if everyone is doing it, why can't Israel?

So if Saddam are going to be condemned, will it be Israel too?

I never said that.

In any case, I agree with Gonz here. Fuck the palestinians, and fuck hamas.

 

[AlladinSane]

This has gone on before. Let me be frank. There is not now, nor has there evera been a state of Palestine.

So, there wasn't never a Coutry called Indiana. So if USA had decided to create Israel on Indiana giving the Israelis most of the land you would be pleased?

When offered, in 1947 or so, they refused. Fuck Arafat & fuck Hamas.

Off course they refused. The share was unjust.

 

[Jeslek]

 

[AlladinSane]

So if Saddam are going to be condemned, will it be Israel too?

I never said that.

I knew you would not . Thanks for proving a point...

 

[Ardsgaine]

Well Israel's army kills civilians also, but it's not considered terrorists. What's the difference? Minority or not they are trated equally. As for owning the land, how do you 'own' a land? Taking it by force? They live there for more than a century... That's enough for me...

Israel's army doesn't target civilians. Civilians get killed in crossfires between the army and the terrorists, because that's what happens in war. The responsibility for the civilian deaths lies with the aggressor, which in this case is the Palestinians.

The Jews did not take over Palestine by conquest. They immigrated there and purchased land. Due to their success at turning wilderness areas into prosperous communities, they became targets of envy and hatred by their Arab neighbors. The British gained control of Palestine after WW I. During that period, the Arabs attempted to stop Jewish immigration to Palestine. When the British got ready to leave, they tried to make an arrangement that would protect the rights of the Jews. The Arabs refused any solution that protected the rights of the Jews. The UN voted on a resolution, and divided the area into two countries, one Jewish and one Arab. The Arab nations in the area (Lebannon, Syria, Transjordan, Iraq and Egypt) attacked the Jews in an effort to irradicate their fledgling country. The Jews fought back and defeated them. They established a democratic country. (Quick quiz: Name all the Arab democracies.)

The Arabs living in Israel were urged to leave by their leaders. The Israelis invited them to stay. Over 700,000 left and went to other Arab nations where they were put into refugee camps. Those who stayed were given citizenship in Israel. The only Arab country that has ever granted citizenship to the Palestinian refugees living in their borders is Jordan.

There was another war in 1956 when, in response to raids against civilians by Palestinian terrorists operating out of Sinai, Israel invaded the Sinai Peninsula. At the same, Egypt was attacked by Anglo-French forces in response to their nationalization of the Suez Canal. UN forces took control of Sinai in order to prevent further attacks against Israel.

By 1967 the center of conflict had moved north to Syria. Terrorists were using the Golan Heights in Syria to shell settlements in Northern Israel. Israel responded with air attacks, and shot down six Syrian planes. Syria appealed to Egypt for assistance, and Egyptian forces moved into Sinai. The Egyptian president ordered the UN forces to be withdrawn, and closed the Straits of Tiran to all shipping to and from Israel. Iraq and Saudi Arabia also moved troops to Israel's border. Israel launched a pre-emptive attack and defeated Egypt in four days, pushing them out of the Sinai Peninsula. Jordan had been advised that if they kept the peace they would not be attacked. They began shelling Israel, and the Israeli military responded by pushing them out of the West Bank area. The Golan Heights were likewise taken in response to shelling from that area.

In 1969, Egypt began to bombard Israeli positions in Sinai. For over a year there was cross-border conflict between the two countries until a cease fire was negotiated.

In 1973 Egypt and Syria attacked Israel in the Yom Kippur war. Israel was taken by surprise, but after being pushed back initially, they were able to invade Syria and Egypt. A UN resolution ended the fighting after 18 days with Israel winning the war.

The Sinai and Gaza Strip were given back to Egypt when Egypt and Israel signed the Camp David Accords in exchange for Egypt's recognition of Israel's right to exist.

The PLO launched attacks against Irael from bases in Jordan until they were expelled in 1970 after clashes between them and the Jordanian army. The PLO then moved into southern Lebannon, and continued to launch attacks from there. Israel invaded the area in 1978 after a PLO air attack. They withdrew their forces in favor of a UN peace-keeping force. The UN forces were unable to stop the terrorist attacks, though, so in 1982 Israel once again invaded. They surrounded the PLO in West Beirut. The US sponsored a plan to allow the PLO to evacuate to other Arab countries.

Since then we've had the Intifada, the return of Arafat to Israel, the Palestine Authority, attempts to negotiate a Palestinian State, etc... always accompanied by terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.

So I guess my question is, where in all this do you see the Israelis doing anything other than trying to protect themselves? The Jews immigrated to Palestine in the first place because they were tired of living in places where people hated them, envied them, used them for scapegoats, and periodically went on killing rampages against them. The place was a wilderness, a backwater on the ass-end of the world. They worked hard and turned their settlements into prosperous towns. They built a free, rich country in a desolate land surrounded by hostile dictatorships.

I don't think that those who criticize them for fighting for their survival are anti-Semitic. After all, the Arabs are Semitic also. It's not that they're anti-Jew either. They are just people who hate success and self-assertiveness.

That's really why the Jews have always been hated anyway. Not so much for their religion, although even that is indicative of the deeper reason: supposedly the Jews chose political freedom (Barrabas) over the Kingdom of Heaven (Jesus). They live in this world rather than the next and strive for success in this life. That's their sin. As long as they were the suffering underdogs of oppression and victims of fascism, the leftists loved them. As soon as they showed themselves capable of succeeding on their own, growing rich and embarrassing their enemies with their military prowess, the left dropped them like a hot potato. Why? Because socialism is a political philosohpy that requires suffering. If there is no suffering, if there is no poverty and misery, then there is no reason for socialism. Once you succeed, the left has no need of you. You can no longer serve as a pretext for what they really desire: to tear down those who succeed in life. When you succeed you become the enemy. That is why the leftists hate Israel now.

 

[Gonz]

Noite, if I were president, I'd offer Florida in a heartbeat. It has waterways & conecctions to mainland, it supports hearty vegetation so they don't starve & water in which to irrigate.

LL, I didn't say fuck Palestinians, they deserve better leadership & a homeland. They don't deserve Israel though. I ain't theirs.

From Xibase:
http://www.xibase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4739&highlight=palestine

http://www.xibase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4192&highlight=palestine

http://www.xibase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4029&highlight=palestine

all showing how this is an Arab war using Palestinian people to fight it.

 

[Jeslek]

LL, I didn't say fuck Palestinians, they deserve better leadership & a homeland.

Oops yes, um, my mistake.

They don't deserve Israel though. I ain't theirs.

Yes I agree with you here.

 

[AlladinSane]

Noite, if I were president, I'd offer Florida in a heartbeat. It has waterways & conecctions to mainland, it supports hearty vegetation so they don't starve & water in which to irrigate.

But you don't live in Florida do you?

 

[Jeslek]

Noite, if I were president, I'd offer Florida in a heartbeat. It has waterways & conecctions to mainland, it supports hearty vegetation so they don't starve & water in which to irrigate.

But you don't live in Florida do you?

Um, you obviously don't know of Florida...

 

[Gonz]

No. They can have Indiana. It would put them in a precarious place though. surrounded. Hell, they can have AZ, my home state, but then they'd have no waterways, besides the Colorado River. FL would be the best option, for us & them.

 

[AlladinSane]

Ards your summary of the conflict was substantially accurate I would like to do some considerations

Israel's army doesn't target civilians. Civilians get killed in crossfires between the army and the terrorists, because that's what happens in war.

They got way too much casualties for 'crossfire accidents'. I'm not saying terrorism is good, it definately isn't. But I think two wrongs don't make a right.

The Jews did not take over Palestine by conquest. They immigrated there and purchased land.

Right. but at 1947 they still were minority both in number of people and in % of land owned. Despite that the sharing gave Israelis most of the country(55% if I remember exactly).

The British gained control of Palestine after WW I. During that period, the Arabs attempted to stop Jewish immigration to Palestine. When the British got ready to leave, they tried to make an arrangement that would protect the rights of the Jews.

In fact they promised to both of them they would give them the whole of the land in some point.

So I guess my question is, where in all this do you see the Israelis doing anything other than trying to protect themselves?

Don't forget about the massacre in Sabra and Chatila refugee camps during Lebanon ocupation in 1982, made with consentment of Beguin and Sharon. And the terrorist action by the extremist groups Irgun and Stern back in the 40's.

I don't think that those who criticize them for fighting for their survival are anti-Semitic. After all, the Arabs are Semitic also.

Yes, I wasn't 100% sure of that.

As soon as they showed themselves capable of succeeding on their own, growing rich and embarrassing their enemies with their military prowess, the left dropped them like a hot potato. Why? Because socialism is a political philosohpy that requires suffering.

Geez man what the hell socialism have to do with it?

 

[AlladinSane]

I'm getting you don't like Florida

 

[Gonz]

I'm getting you don't like Florida

I have no feelings toward it at all. It would stop a lot of troubles or at least show that the Israelis aren't the problem. Of course, having bugs as big as cars not made by Volkwagen doesn't help its cause.

 

[Ardsgaine]

Geez man what the hell socialism have to do with it?

Sorry, I went back on topic. Read the first post in the thread again. It's the left that's leading the criticism of Israel. The left is socialist, or at least it was the last time I checked.

Ris, Luis, Leslie... you guys are still socialists, right?