This is, too...

Gonz said:
Which is why the Americans are arguing the point & the Canadians blindly accepted it. Private property rights have eroded to the point we all might as well rent. Why own your home or business when some do-gooder can come along & tell you what you can't do, that is legal, on your property.

Smoking is not a proven cause of cancer.

Actually, Gonz smoking has been linked to cancer for years, but that isn't the point of this thread. It's about property rights.

While I'm doing this, I'll say one more thing. Most of the people whining about cigarette smoking in clubs would be more than happy to somoke a joint if allowed.
 
Gato_Solo said:
Sorry, prof, but that's not what it's about. You wish to act ignorant, then do so, but don't do it with me. It's about the rights of the owner to allow, or disallow, any legal activity in his place of business he sees fit. You choose to ignore that point, and jump on smoking because it suits you and what you want to see. I do not see this as a smoking/non-smoking issue. I've stated numerous times that it wasn't about smoking, and you chose to ignore that. Shows who actually is paying attention, doesn't it?




Gato_Solo said:
Professur said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you truely believe that, I pity you. Fortunately, most people aren't so foolish.

But, on the off chance that you're right, let's look at the rest of it. You say that city air is as toxic as cigarette smoke. Then why do I wind up with watery eyes and a sore throat when I breath smoke, but not city air? How about, why do my clothes stink from cigarette smoke, but not from city air?

Let's try this. Why is it that smoker's machine's that I work on, are often glued shut with tar, but non smoker's machines, from the heart of downtown aren't? Why do smoking room walls turn yellow, when the rest of the walls stay white? How about a smoker's hands? Teeth?


If you think your clothes smell fresh after a bit of time in the city air, I pity you. If you think peoples eyes don't get watery, and throats aren't sore after a time breathing that good, clean downtown city air, then I guess you must be breathing through a filter. Why does my car window (I don't smoke in my car) get filmy when I drive down the road, outside and inside? Why does the room I'm in now, in a non-smoking building, have yellowed walls after only 18 months since painting them egg-shell white (inside with no windows)? What about coffe-drinkers teeth? I haven't seen the yellowed hands on a smoker, so I can't judge that. I also haven't seen anything 'glued shut' from smoking, so I can't judge that, either. But I do know one thing. A business owner should have the right to decide the activities that go on inside his place of business as long as those activities are legal.

You chose to ignore my point. The right of workers to a safe work environment. Bleating on about city polution doesn't change that there is a statistical anomality concerning the amount of lung and heart disease in non-smoking waiters and waitresses. An anomality that distinctly resembles the statistical curve for smokers.

Those people have the right to a safe work environment. But their bosses, who's rights you keep proclaiming, couldn't care less about their health.

Representatives of more than 10,000 pub owners in Ireland have claimed the ban will cost them business in a country where about 30 per cent of adults smoke. So far, however, pubs have reported few problems in enforcement. Unlike the parliamentary bar, some have created new outdoor areas where drinkers can still smoke legally
(from the above cited article)

They're more concerned about losing the almighty dollar, pound, euro, or whatever dirty luker they're pocketing. Just as miners and steel workers bosses did, until they were forced to clean up their act.
 
Professur said:
If you think your clothes smell fresh after a bit of time in the city air, I pity you. If you think peoples eyes don't get watery, and throats aren't sore after a time breathing that good, clean downtown city air, then I guess you must be breathing through a filter. Why does my car window (I don't smoke in my car) get filmy when I drive down the road, outside and inside? Why does the room I'm in now, in a non-smoking building, have yellowed walls after only 18 months since painting them egg-shell white (inside with no windows)? What about coffe-drinkers teeth? I haven't seen the yellowed hands on a smoker, so I can't judge that. I also haven't seen anything 'glued shut' from smoking, so I can't judge that, either. But I do know one thing. A business owner should have the right to decide the activities that go on inside his place of business as long as those activities are legal.

You chose to ignore my point. The right of workers to a safe work environment. Bleating on about city polution doesn't change that there is a statistical anomality concerning the amount of lung and heart disease in non-smoking waiters and waitresses. An anomality that distinctly resembles the statistical curve for smokers.

Those people have the right to a safe work environment. But their bosses, who's rights you keep proclaiming, couldn't care less about their health.

(from the above cited article)

They're more concerned about losing the almighty dollar, pound, euro, or whatever dirty luker they're pocketing. Just as miners and steel workers bosses did, until they were forced to clean up their act.


Okay, prof. Since you want to make smoking a pollution issue, you're going to have to show me both statistical and raw data on the following things...

1. Chemicals in cigarette smoke
2. Chemicals in outside air
3. Time spent with cigarette smoke to get the data
4. Time spent in outside air to get the data

Now for the kicker...Where (location and web-site) the data was found. I want you to read it, but, more importantly, I want you to try and understand it. I'll do the same.
 
Gato. I read it long ago. When I quit smoking. I don't have anything to prove. It's all been proven in court, many times. Otherwise that law never would have gotten passed. But, if it'll make you happy, I'll waste the time looking it up, and posting it, so that you can ignore it, and go on smoking anyways. Which you'll do. Because you'd rather fight an issue backwards than admit you're on the wrong side.
 
The right of workers to a safe work environment.

The worker isn't a slave. If they don't like the environment, quit. If enough quit then the owners will have a financial decision to make. Change the work environ or don't.
 
http://tobaccodocuments.org/lor/03734983-5036.html

http://www.doorcountycompass.com/smokefree/020822_waitress.htm

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2003/02/11/24612-cp.html

http://www.sk.lung.ca/content.cfm/xtra19

I'm seeing Workman's comp board, Ontario's Workplace Safety and Insurance Board, Canadian Auto Workers, You'll have to excuse the high canadian content. The issue, you see, was well thrashed through their news before any laws were passed.


I'll dig up more detailed stuff at home, when I've the time.
 
Profs link said:
No mechanism by which cigarette smoke migh~ produce or con-
tribute to heart disease has: been demonstra:ted. ~he roles, 19 any,
of nicotine and carbon monoxide in the: initia~tlon and development
of heart disease in smokers and nonsmokers have not been shown~.

Whether cigarette smoking is causally related ~o heart disease
is not sclentlflcall~ established.
 
Gonz said:
The worker isn't a slave. If they don't like the environment, quit. If enough quit then the owners will have a financial decision to make. Change the work environ or don't.

Gonz, even you're not retarded enough to have posted that.
 
What's retarded about the truth? The waiter/ress is unaware of smoking on the premises before applying for the job?
 
Professur said:
Gato. I read it long ago. When I quit smoking. I don't have anything to prove. It's all been proven in court, many times. Otherwise that law never would have gotten passed. But, if it'll make you happy, I'll waste the time looking it up, and posting it, so that you can ignore it, and go on smoking anyways. Which you'll do. Because you'd rather fight an issue backwards than admit you're on the wrong side.


Wrong again, prof. Laws are passed every day with no other cause than hysteria. On a personal note, I'm glad you quit. More power to you. I'll also say this. I don't smoke indoors, I don't smoke in my car, and I don't smoke when anyone around me is offended. I'm not fighting this issue 'backwards' as you say, because the link you are talking about just doesn't exist. Back on topic...

I open a restaurant that serves lobster. I serve my lobster boiled, in the shell, and fresh. Joe Shmoe is allergic to lobster, but decides to come to my restaurant and order up a tail anyway. He get's sick. Who's fault is it? He knew I served lobster, he went in and got some lobster, and he ate the lobster. Nobody forced him to do so. Joe Shmoe, however, gets a group together...say PETA, and they hire a lawyer and tell you that you have to change your menu because Joe can't eat there.
If you can't see the difference in what i'm posting here, and the sleight-of-hand you've been posting, then I feel sorry for you, because I couldn't care less if I'm not allowed to smoke in a bar/lounge/whatever. I do care, however, that folks are out there who will try and force their agenda down everyones throats based on fear and supposition. All that has to be done is a little sleight-of-hand, and people will be willing to follow even the worst idea to it's conclusion. When you wake up, and notice what's going on, I hope it's soon enough to do something about it.
 
Professur said:
http://medic.med.uth.tmc.edu/ptnt/00000279.htm

http://www.docguide.com/news/conten...6E5863?OpenDocument&c=Lung Cancer&count=10 02

http://www.braytonlaw.com/news/mednews/121903_tobacco_passive.htm

Now I'm not gonna pretend to have read every document, or even to understand every detail. but I'm seeing a lot of lawyers, doctors, and legalities. If the evidence doesn't slant towards a problem with second hand smoke, there's a lot of people out there who need to be fired.


I've got one...it's got other links...and I just googled "Second Hand Smoke" and copied the url here...

http://www.davehitt.com/facts/epa.html Funny how all your sites all reference the same test, innit?
 
Gonz said:
What's retarded about the truth? The waiter/ress is unaware of smoking on the premises before applying for the job?


Gonz, how many waitresses do you know who want to be waitresses? They're there because this is the best job they could get. There is no other, better job for them. There is no no smoking restaurant or bar for them to work at. Until now.

Gato, I see the difference. Again, you're discussing the client and owner. I'm not, and never have been.
 
Hmm, lotsa valid points flying around here re:smoking effects on health.

lessee what I can add :)

*extinguishes cigarette*

*coughs furiously*

*spits out a lump of what might pass as an alien feotus*

There ya go.......pick the lumps outa that and tell me how healthy ciggy smoke is ;)

Oz
Not A Role Model
 
Professur said:
Gonz, how many waitresses do you know who want to be waitresses? They're there because this is the best job they could get. There is no other, better job for them. There is no no smoking restaurant or bar for them to work at. Until now.

:rofl4:

I believe I stated that, if a person actually opened a no-smoking bar, or restaurant that was profitable, then you'd have no leg to stand on. Why hasn't this happened? Surely there must be a huge following for such a place. Why...they couldn't keep the waiters/waitresses from signing on.

:rofl4:

Until then, it's just 3 words. Deal with it. BTW...I haven't been to a restaurant in 12 years that actually allowed smoking, and just about every bar-tender I know has a lit one hanging off his lip from time to time. ;)
 
UK Sunday Telegraph...

Passive Smoking Doesn't Cause Cancer - Official


Headline: Passive Smoking Doesn't Cause Cancer -
Official
Byline: Victoria MacDonald, Health Correspondent
Dateline: March 8, 1998

The world's leading health organisation has
withheld from publication a study which shows that
not only might there be no link between passive
smoking and lung cancer but that it could even
have a protective effect. The astounding results
are set to throw wide open the debate on passive
smoking health risks.

The World Health Organisation, which commissioned
the 12-centre, seven-country European study has
failed to make the findings public, and has
instead produced only a summary of the results in
an internal report. Despite repeated approaches,
nobody at the WHO headquarters in Geneva would
comment on the findings last week.





The findings are certain to be an embarrassment to
the WHO, which has spent years and vast sums on
anti-smoking and anti-tobacco campaigns. The study
is one of the largest ever to look at the link
between passive smoking - inhaling other people's
smoke - and lung cancer, and had been eagerly
awaited by medical experts and campaigning groups.
Yet the scientists have found that there was no
statistical evidence that passive smoking caused
lung cancer.





The research compared 650 lung cancer patients
with 1,542 healthy people. It looked at people who
were married to smokers, worked with smokers, both
worked and were married to smokers, and those who
grew up with smokers. The results are consistent
with there being no additional risk for a person
living or working with a smoker and could be
consistent with passive smoke having a protective
effect against lung cancer.

The summary, seen by The Sunday Telegraph, also
states: "There was no association between lung
cancer risk and ETS exposure during childhood." A
spokesman for Action on Smoking and Health said
the findings "seem rather surprising given the
evidence from other major reviews on the subject
which have shown a clear association between
passive smoking and a number of diseases."





Dr Chris Proctor, head of science for BAT
Industries, the tobacco group, said the findings
had to be taken seriously. "If this study cannot
find any statistically valid risk you have to ask
if there can be any risk at all. "It confirms what
we and many other scientists have long believed,
that while smoking in public may be annoying to
some non-smokers, the science does not show that
being around a smoker is a lung-cancer risk."
 
Second-hand Smoke Study Sparks Controversy
By Mike Wendling
CNSNews.com London Bureau Chief
May 16, 2003

London (CNSNews.com) - A study about to be published in this week's
British Medical Journal indicates that second-hand smoke doesn't
increase the risk of heart disease or lung cancer, but the
publication and the study's authors have come under attack by
anti-smoking groups.

Two American researchers analyzed data from an American Cancer
Society survey that followed more than 118,000 Californians from
1960 until 1998.

James E. Enstrom, of the University of California at Los Angeles and
Geoffrey C. Kabat of the State University of New York at Stony Brook
concluded that "the results do not support a causal relation between
environmental tobacco smoke (second-hand smoke) and tobacco related
mortality, although they do not rule out a small effect."

"The association between exposure to environmental tobacco smoke and
coronary heart disease and lung cancer may be considerably weaker
than generally believed," the researchers wrote.

The study was roundly condemned by anti-smoking groups including the
American Cancer Society and even by the British Medical Journal's
parent organization, the British Medical Association. They said the
researchers received money from the tobacco industry, a statement
that was confirmed by the journal Friday.

The American Cancer Society (ACS) pointed out what it called several
flaws in the research. The researchers based their study on a small
subset of the original data, the ACS said, and because of the
greater prevalence of smokers in the 60s and 70s, "virtually
everyone was exposed to environmental tobacco smoke."

Smoking opponents also pointed out in the original study, although
the health of the subjects were monitored until 1998, no information
on smoking habits was collected after 1972.

"We are appalled that the tobacco industry has succeeded in giving
visibility to a study with so many problems," Michael J. Thun, ACS
national vice president of epidemiology and surveillance research,
said in a statement.

"The American Cancer Society welcomes thoughtful, independent peer
review of our data. But this study is neither reliable nor
independent," Thun said.

Other studies have indicated that inhaling second-hand smoke on a
regular basis increases the risk of heart disease by about 30
percent. But as the researchers pointed out in their BMJ article,
exposure to second-hand smoke is difficult to measure and such
studies necessarily rely on self-reported data that may or may not
be accurate.

Figures are skewed, researchers said, by former smokers who are
wrongly classified.

"The relation between tobacco-related diseases and environmental
tobacco smoke may be influenced by misclassification of some smokers
as never smokers," the researchers wrote.

However, several British groups agreed with the ACS assessment of
the study. The British Medical Association said that 1,000 people
die every year in the U.K. as a result of passive smoking.

"There is overwhelming evidence, built up over decades, that passive
smoking causes lung cancer and heart disease, as well as triggering
asthma attacks," said Vivienne Nathanson, BMA's head of science and
ethics. "In children, passive smoking increases the risk of
pneumonia, bronchitis, and reduces lung growth, as well as both
causing and worsening asthma."

A spokesman for Action on Smoking and Health said: "We are utterly
surprised as to why the BMJ has published this. It's nothing but a
lobbying tool."

"This is just one study," the spokesman said. "It will do nothing to
change the massive body of evidence that has built up over the
years."

The journal stood by its decision to publish research but editors
turned down interview requests Friday. A spokeswoman said decisions
on publication were made only after "careful consideration and peer
review."

The study, which was available online and will be published in the
BMJ on Saturday, was partially funded by money from the tobacco
industry, the spokeswoman said, but could not provide further
details.

Groups campaigning against further tobacco regulations in Britain
welcomed the research. Smokers' lobby group FOREST said the "jury is
still out" on the effects of second-hand smoke.

"This is typical of the anti-smoking lobby's bullying tactics," said
FOREST director Simon Clark. "They attack not just the authors but
the messenger ... the BMJ is one of the most respected journals in
the world."

Attacks on the study in the U.K. have been led by proponents of a
total ban on smoking in public places like pubs, clubs and
restaurants, a position that Clark said was undermined by the study.

"People who want to ban smoking in public places use passive smoking
as their number one argument," he said. "That's why this study is so
significant."
 
One more thing, and then I'm done...Businesses in the service industry are there to serve. If the public buys there, then the business thrives. If the public does not buy there, the business dies. Any legal form of entertainment is part of that industry. The owner of any such business has a vested interest inmaking a profit, so that those waiters and waitresses actually get a paycheck. If there is a better way to make a business more profitable, don't you think it would've happened by now? Don't you think that business owners have any brains at all?
 
Now that that little matter is all cleared up :lol: can we get back to property rights?

Who believes they actually own their house once the mortgage is paid off?
 
America started out as an essentially laissez-faire capitalist society, in which government left business entirely alone: no favors, and no restrictions, except against fraud or contractual violations, of course. The myth is that the growth of Big Government contained capitalism and kept it from becoming irrational. The truth is actually the opposite. The economy only continues to flourish as much as it does because of the remnants of freedom and capitalism that are still with us.

Source

thanks Wink
 
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