THOUGHTS ON GUN CONFISCATION

[Gonz]

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. Subsequently, from 1915 to 1917, 1.5-million Armenians, deprived of the means to defend themselves, were rounded up and killed.

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. Then from 1929 to 1953, approximately 20-millon dissidents were rounded up and killed.

In 1938 Germany did establish gun control. From 1939 to 1945 over 13-million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, mentally ill, union leaders, Catholics and others, unable to fire a shot in protest, were rounded up and killed.

In 1935, China established gun control. Subsequently, between 1948 and 1952, over 20-million dissidents were rounded up and killed.

In 1956, Cambodia enshrined gun control. In just two years (1975-1977) over one million "educated" people were rounded up and killed.

In 1964, Guatemala locked in gun control. From 1964 to 1981, over 100,000 Mayan Indians were rounded up and killed as a result of their inability to defend themselves.

In 1970, Uganda got gun control. Over the next nine years over 300,000 Christians were rounded up and killed.

Over 56-million people have died because of gun control in the last century . . .338

Senator Diane Feinstein, speaking on "60-Minutes"..."if I
thought I could get the votes, I'd have taken them all."

338 Most of the genocide statistics were reported “Death by ‘Gun Control’: The Human Cost of Victim Disarmament, Aaron Zelman & Richard W. Stevens, 2001

Facts for perusing

 

[chcr]

Gonz, your data is meaningless. There is no complimentary data on what percentage of the people cited might have owned guns previously. Sorry, I am very much against gun control, but this particualr argument has no worth.

 

[Gonz]

It's just an introduction to find more fun stuff. Like this better?

Many of the countries with the strictest gun control have the highest rates of violent crime. Australia and England, which have virtually banned gun ownership, have the highest rates of robbery, sexual assault, and assault with force of the top 17 industrialized countries.222

222 Dutch Ministry of Justice, Criminal Victimization in Seventeen Industrialized Countries, 2001

 

[Gonz]

.

 

[Oz]

Erm....so wot are you saying here Gonz? That all cultures that have strict control on firearms should instantly relax those laws?

Rock on!! I wants me an ak-47 and a rocket-propelled grenade launcher!

Thank gods my country.....not to mention the entire world....will soon be a safer place!

 

[chcr]

I note that Japan, which has some of the strictist gun control laws, is at the bottom of your list. I also note no source for the list. What about the rate for armed robbery. Most importantly, why don't all these other sovereign nations do what we tell them is good for them.

 

[Gonz]

Same source as the post above it.

OZ...read the pdf & you may agree...

Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot burglaries”.162
By contrast, the U.S., with laxer restrictions, has a “hot burglary” rate of only 13%.163

Fact: Washington D.C., has banned gun ownership and has a per capita murder rate of 56.9.
Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is not regulated, and the murder rate is a mere 1.6 per capita.164

Fact: 26% of all retail businesses report keeping a gun on the premises for crime control.165

Fact: In 1982, Kennesaw, GA passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate dropped 89% the following year.166

Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following:167
• 74% of felons agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."

163 Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University (1997) and Kopel (1992 and 1999)
164 FBI, “Crime in the United States”, 1998
165 U.S. Small Business Administration, “Crime Against Small Business”, 1969, Senate Document No. 91-14
166 Dr. Gary Kleck, “Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force”, Social Problems, February 1988
167 U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997. Department of Justice, National
Institute of Justice, "The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons," Research Report, July
1985

 

[Oz]

Yup, those are some pretty scary statistics alright.

But, the fact remains that here I ain't been shot yet, and neither has a member of my family ..... so summit is workin' ok with control on firearms.

Also there are reasons such as this One guy goes nutty with a coupla guns and 17 kids wind up dead.......now, multiply that by the number of folks admitted to mental institutions for violent conditions each year.......all of whom prior to going off their heads could have quite legally purchased a firearm.

I don't want to live a country where summit like the Dunblane massacre happens more than every couple of years.......thankyouverymuch

I don't wanna live in a country where it happens at all......but, things seem to be gettin' worse, instead of better :/

 

[Gonz]

Fact: In the school shooting in Pearl, Mississippi, the assistant principal
had formerly carried a firearm to school. When the 1995 "Gun-Free
School Zones" law passed, he began locking his firearm in his car and
parking it at least a quarter-mile away from the school. When that shooting
incident started he ran to his car, unlocked it, got his gun, ran back,
disarmed the shooter and held him on the ground for five minutes until the
police arrived. Had the law not been passed, the assistant principal might
have prevented the two deaths and seven shooting related injuries.

Nobody has been shot in my family either. That has nothing to do with firearms being banned.

 

[Oz]

Nobody has been shot in my family either. That has nothing to do with firearms being banned.

So having easy access to guns works for you and yours........and not having easy access to guns works for us, I still don't see your point here :shrugs:

Fact: In the school shooting in Pearl, Mississippi, the assistant principal
had formerly carried a firearm to school. When the 1995 "Gun-Free
School Zones" law passed, he began locking his firearm in his car and
parking it at least a quarter-mile away from the school. When that shooting
incident started he ran to his car, unlocked it, got his gun, ran back,
disarmed the shooter and held him on the ground for five minutes until the
police arrived. Had the law not been passed, the assistant principal might
have prevented the two deaths and seven shooting related injuries.

Vigilante state eh?

Still, tragic as that is (but not as fucking tragic as a school where an assistant principal carries a gun imo.....did no one tell him that a school is usually populated by children??) Like I said earlier.....take the number of people who are crimanally psychotic and give them easy access to guns....I don't see how relaxing gun laws removes the risk of another Dunblane incident. You've given an example of how relaxed gun laws might cause damage limitation, I'm talking about removing the risk completely (and yes, I know the risk isn't removed....yet....we need several more years, if not decades to asses how our new laws regarding firearms are going to affect society).

 

[Gonz]

What's tragic about the AP carrying a gun? He has the right to bear arms. He bore them. Children may be the main populace of the buildings interior but it's exterior is full of all kinds...including those who've lost their mind & have become a danger.

There will never be a risk free world. Remove all the iron & steel & we still have rocks & sticks. Limiting damage is as good as we can hope for. Even two dogs may fight over a bitch, causing great damage.

Weapons are not the problem.

 

[Oz]

What's tragic about the AP carrying a gun? He has the right to bear arms. He bore them. Children may be the main populace of the buildings interior but it's exterior is full of all kinds...including those who've lost their mind & have become a danger.

The AP had the right to bear arms in the school.......now he doesn't, I presume there is a reason for that? (personally, I wouldn't let a child of mine within' a mile of someone carrying a gun, call that a little overprotective if you will......but guns and kids don't mix. Adults who would have a gun and be close to a child certainly don't mix).

There will never be a risk free world. Remove all the iron & steel & we still have rocks & sticks. Limiting damage is as good as we can hope for. Even two dogs may fight over a bitch, causing great damage.

Weapons are not the problem

See, you've answered my next question without me having to ask it

There are literally hundreds of ways to ensure personal protection, and indeed, protection for those close to you, that don't involve fireing a lump at lead at close to the speed of sound through someone's body.

I've spoken on these forums before about tazers, personal alarms, etc etc

In the above scenario at the school.......security and alarms would have been far more effective than an AP with a firearm (as effective as I'm sure the AP was, I doubt very much that he could run through his school before a man could pull the trigger of a gun a coupla times).....prevention, not limitation dear Gonz......that's the key

And yes, there will always be rocks and sticks......it seems to be human nature to cause as much physical damage as possible to each other, look at your own attitude of "get them before they get me" ....... so, because it's quiet tonight and I'm bored, I'll type my question again Why exactly do you think that raising the number of guns available will improve matters?

 

[Gonz]

The reason the AP no longer carried a weapon in school was the local politicians decided to follow emotions & outlaw weapons within xx feet of a school. Probably due to school shootings. Thereby guaranteeing all non-criminals would be unarmed.

Alarms are not infallible. In fact they are quite easily beaten by those that wish to beatthem. Security? What exactly do you call an AP with a sidearm? Are you suggesting we make thenm bobbies? "Stop! or I'll yell STOP! again"

Prevention is impossible in every case. As somone pointed out in the war on terror...we have to be right everytime - they only have to be right once. The same holds true with destruction. Hell, Jim Jones used Kool-Aid.

Raising the numbers of legally obtained firearms owned by citizens with a stake in the community (home ownership, entrepeneur, neighbor) lessens the liklihood of criminal activity. If Jomer the junkie burglar wants to score, will he be more likely to go to Huntertown or Peaceful Village?

 

[Oz]

The reason the AP no longer carried a weapon in school was the local politicians decided to follow emotions & outlaw weapons within xx feet of a school. Probably due to school shootings. Thereby guaranteeing all non-criminals would be unarmed.

And thereby guaranteeing that all potential criminals are unarmed? Seems to make sense.

Alarms are not infallible. In fact they are quite easily beaten by those that wish to beatthem. Security? What exactly do you call an AP with a sidearm? Are you suggesting we make thenm bobbies? "Stop! or I'll yell STOP! again"

Oh, the brit police are armed these days gonz, more's the pity, not every patrolman, sure, but there are plenty of armed units around these days Alarms are not infallible? no, of course they ain't....but is a gunman more likely to walk into a school with a nice big shiny alarm system or a school without? I certainly don't call an AP with a firearm security! Or does the schoolboard ask for a full gun license and adequate training for the job position these days. Security is simple, a metal detector, a nice big lad on the door with a couple of tazers in his belt and an alarm system loud enough to wake the dead is all that is required. Criminals tend to go for soft targets.

Prevention is impossible in every case. As somone pointed out in the war on terror...we have to be right everytime - they only have to be right once. The same holds true with destruction. Hell, Jim Jones used Kool-Aid.

Prevention is not impossible in every case at all....got an alarm on your house? on your car? Your kids carry a personal alarm and a mobile phone? or do ya just pack a fully loaded magnum in with their lunches?

Raising the numbers of legally obtained firearms owned by citizens with a stake in the community (home ownership, entrepeneur, neighbor) lessens the liklihood of criminal activity. If Jomer the junkie burglar wants to score, will he be more likely to go to Huntertown or Peaceful Village?

Raising the numbers of legally obtained firearms owned by citizens simply raises the possibility of firearms used illegally ("How's fred at number 27 these days"......"Oh, he had a nervous breakdown, but I heard he's ok as long as he's had a quart of whisky to help him sleep"......."oh, he still got that fine shotgun on his mantlepiece?"....."Erm, I think so"...)

As for Jomer the Junkie, if he wants to score he'll prolly buy a gun......head off to Peacefull Village.......the citizens of Peacefull Village all buy lovely shotguns to hang on their mantlepiece, and before ya know it, Peacefull Village has become Huntertown

Honestly tho'.......I can see your point Gonz, you live in a country with lax gun laws......and your crime has still escalated over the last forty years...I live in a country with strict gun laws and crime has escalated over the last forty years. Luckily my country has taken further steps recently.....just implementing a mandatory 5 year jail sentence for anyone carrying an illegal firearm....have to wait and see how that goes If it don't work/help...I still want me ak-47

 

[Gonz]

thereby guaranteeing that all potential criminals are unarmed

Tell me to add a grain of salt.

Criminals tend to go for soft targets.

Why yes, they do.

Fact: Though the number of firearms owned by private citizens has been increasing steadily since 1970, the overall rate of homicides and suicides has not risen.29

29 Prof. Gary Kleck, “Targeting Guns: Firearms and their control”, w/ supporting data from the FBI Uniform Crime
Statistics, 1972 to 1995

Fact: Since gun banning has escalated in the UK, the rate of crime – especially violent crime – has risen.

Fact: Street robberies soared 28% in 2001. Violent crime is up 11%, murders
up 4%, and rapes are up 14%.223

Fact: Comparing crime rates between America and Britain is flawed. In
America, a gun crime is recorded as a gun crime. In Britain, a crime is only recorded when there is a final disposition (a conviction). All unsolved gun crimes in Britain are not reported as gun crimes, grossly undercounting the amount of gun crime there. 224 To make matters worse, British
law enforcement has been exposed for falsifying criminal reports to create falsely lower crime figures, in part to preserve tourism.225

Fact: A continuing parliamentary inquiry into the growing number of black market weapons has concluded that there are more than three million illegally held firearms in circulation - double the number believed to have been held 10 years ago - and that criminals are more willing than ever to use them. One in three criminals under the age of 25 possesses or has access to a firearm. 226

Fact: Handgun homicides in England and Wales reached an all-time high in 2000, years after a virtual ban on private handgun ownership. More than 3,000 crimes involving handguns were recorded in 1999-2000, including the 42 homicides, 310 cases of attempted murder, 2,561 robberies and 204 burglaries.227


223 British Home Office, reported by BBC news, July 12, 2002
224 Gallant , Hills, Kopel, “Fear in Britain”, Independence Institute, July 18, 2000
225 Daily Telegraph, 1996
226 Reported in The Guardian, September 3, 2000
227 “42 killed by handguns last year “, The Times, January 10, 2001. Reporting on statistics supplied by the British
Home Office.

Lax gun laws? Hell there are cities here that have all but made gun ownership illegal & they have the highest increase in crime.

 

[Oz]

Tell me to add a grain of salt.

You never heard the song by The Boomtown Rats - I don't like Mondays? Add seasoning to taste

Why yes, they do.

The Contact Crime Victimisation? what the hell is that? Sounds like some kinda victim support group

29 Prof. Gary Kleck, “Targeting Guns: Firearms and their control”, w/ supporting data from the FBI Uniform Crime
Statistics, 1972 to 1995

Gonz, I hate to point out the obvious.....but all crime has been rising, here and in the states.......and bare in mind this is just reported crime. I see The Times reporting of 42 people killed by guns in 2001......that's pretty bad...but would it be better if there were more guns on the street?

Lax gun laws? Hell there are cities here that have all but made gun ownership illegal & they have the highest increase in crime.

Someone should tell a tazer and alarm salesman then

You seem to be in a statistical mood tonight....lemme ask you a question, how many illegal firearms are there in the US? (I understand the answer will be an estimation of course)

 

[Gonz]

Stats, because the pdf in post one is a decent source with plenty of legit & stated sources.

The Federal government estimated that there were over 65 million gun owners in the U.S., and more than 50% were handgun owners.268 This number is generally considered low due to the reluctance of many to admit to a government agency that they own a gun. Other estimates indicate that 41% of U.S. households are gun-owning households.

268 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, 1997

that's pretty bad...but would it be better if there were more guns on the street?

Apparently yes. It can come all the way full circle to my original post.

Fact: Violent crime appears to be encouraged by gun control. Most gun control laws in the United States have been written since 1968, yet the murder rate has risen during that time.116

Fact: In 1976, Washington, D.C. enacted one of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation. Since then, the city's murder rate has risen 134 percent while the national murder rate has dropped 2 percent.117

Fact: Among the 15 states with the highest homicide rates, 10 have restrictive or very restrictive gun laws.118

Fact: Maryland claims to have the toughest gun control laws in the nation and ranks #1 in robberies and #3 in both violent crime and murder.119

Fact: 20% of U.S. homicides occur in four cities with just six percent of the population – New York, Chicago, Detroit, and Washington, D.C. – and each has a virtual prohibition on private handguns.120

Fact: The landmark federal Gun Control Act of 1968, banning most interstate gun sales, had no discernible impact on the criminal acquisition of guns from other states.121

116 National Center for Health Statistics, Vital Statistics, Revised July, 1999
117 Dr. Gary Kleck, University of Florida using FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1997
118 Ibid.
119 FBI Uniform Crime Reports (UCR) for 2000, p. 79, Table 5, "Index of Crime by State"
120 Ibid.
121 “Under the Gun”, Wright, Rossi, Daly, University of Massachusetts, 1981

Guns save lives.

 

[samcurry]

they gotta find that i even have any before they can take them :evil:

 

[Gonz]

What I wanna know...what the hell happened to $350. handguns? What I once paid $299 for is now over a grand.

 

[freako104]

doesnt gun confiscation violate the second amendment? it says we have the right to bear arms. It was never taken off after the Revolution though. so isnt it still in affect? the other amendments are. or at least are said to be